Proof that cables Do make a difference

The message from the above post can be summarized as follows:

"$7k cables will have more bass than $2k cables which still have a lot of bass but are not as subtle. If you can hear these obvious differences then you can work back to the electrical engineering that causes these differences."

Assuming this was posted in good faith, and given that many of us don't own Sasha's, perhaps he could favor us with the engineering explanation for his observations. Hopefully the point that was being made here would be clarified.

I really don't understand the controversy surrounding Nick's statement. Simply put--and let's forget about price tags for the moment--a crappy speaker cable can degrade the sound of the Sashas to the point that they sound worse than a Sophia with better cables. I've heard cables over the years, take for instance the early first gen Straight Wire Ribbons speaker cables, that had no low end response. I don't think it's that farfetched to believe that a Sophia plus say Transparent or MIT's top speakers cables could sound better than a Sashas with, to exaggerate things, zip cord or this early gen Straight Wire cable.

As a matter of fact, as Nick is trying to say, cables can as well as any other link in the chain or room, make or break a system. Our systems are only as good as the weakest point. If the preamp is noisy, then one can never experience the system's total transparency no matter how good the rest of the system is. If the room has a bass hump, putting a better cable in will have limited benefit. A top amplifier on carpet sited on carpet will in many cases sound no better than a receiver.

Or to put it in terms that I know Lee can appreciate, the complex system that makes up our body can only move as well as the weakest point in the fascia (or as Gray Cook's seminal book is appropriately titled, Body in Balance). So for a baseball pitcher whose right shoulder hurts when they go into external rotation problem, the problem in many cases is not at the shoulder/glenohumeral joint but a joint far away, for instance an issue with their left glute. In audio, we are looking at an equally complex situation and part of the fun is actually figuring out where the problem in the system lies (source, phono, pre, amp, cables, isolation, AC, room, tubes, etc) and fixing it. Often, as many of us who been in the hobby have found, it's often a Catch 21 situation or the chicken or egg first scenario :(
 
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I really don't understand the controversy surrounding Nick's statement... :(

Myles, I am open to technical evidence and models explaining the performance of cables. But, I don't know Nick or what his capabilities are. You apparently do, and so are "reading between the lines" of what he wrote. I am just trying to get something tangible from his post and I really don't see you addressing that, either. I believe that I represented its content very well. Maybe it's not what he intended to say and surely there is more to add. Perhaps he will speak for himself and amplify his comments to address my confusion. If you interpret his post otherwise we will be happy to listen but right now you are off on a tangent. I am particularly interested in the technical, engineering, chiral, or whatever other explanation or scientific model he has for cables and, if appropriate, how it may be possible to extrapolate his positive experience to improve my own system.
 
Myles

There are clearly known parameters for cable adequacy. One can choose to go beyond these. Once that level is met then anything you add is ... well superfluous... The claims I have seen here about cables strain many things.. among these, I am trying to remain polite .. my understanding ... that wasn't the word I wanted to use, civility, civility

Now we have to bob, twist, swerve to try to explain that a Sasha with adequate cable, that is, any cable this side of a 10 AWG doesn't remain superior to a Sophia ... and we invoke dissimilar but greatly more complex systems, namely , the very difficult to comprehend human body/mind/brain system ... I have seen in cables discussions the whole list of logic flaws in argument some of them here... from appeal to probabilities : Well if indeed some cables could make a difference they ALL make a difference or teleological ones: Since some think that cables make vast differences then it is required from one to first believe that they do to ..well .. hear these differences and please keep your eyes open and trust your ears ...???

I can understand one wanting to be comfortable with his/her system and investing in cables. That is a prerogative and while too often this preference is not demonstrable at all .. I repeat at all ... I'll give my co-audiophiles a pass and let it be: That they prefer it when they see it, then it is their choice, their money. When however one claims that a power cable can entirely unbalance a system or that by moving a cable , it takes a certain amount of time for it to re-settle or even its provenance, the person who states such must prove it ... Invoking things like stress induced by a dreaded protocol are easy cope out. I am sure that for other components and particularly for speakers there would not be no need for such excuses .. So why for cables? .. Could it be , because these differences are on the far side of subtle .. Too subtle .. not really discernible?
 
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Frantz. If I may relate humble opinion. I don't think hobbyist/end users have to prove anything. We need only relate our experiences.This an amateur forum not the AES. I'm sure they have much fun trying to shoot down each others research. Magazine writers who sell their opinion have a much higher responsibility. So do those who have performed so called scientific tests. blind lsitening is still just listening. I feel it is fair game to point out that they have done little more than listen. Something you could do yourself but for lack of access to the equipment. T
The goal of magazines is to sell equipment. If equipment does not sell they equipment makers go out of business and can't pay advertising fees. Even when they did not charge ad fees magazines had to excite thier readers to sell magazines. There are two ways to excite readers,praise equipment or trash it. In these days of advertising dollars it is better to praise equipment. The manufacturers and the readers are happy. WIN-WIN!

I have to concede advice is advice. Dr. Steve is held to the same malpractice standards when he works at the free clinic as he does when he works at the hospital. When your friend gives you medical advice at a cocktail party, You treat it for what it is. It is entirely likely someone will make a wrong decision based on anecdotal advice. They will however learn a hard lesson. Don't spend your hard earned money on what someone else claims to hear.
A Sasha owner can verify for himself the difference between $7k and $2k worth of cable. My own rule is to only pay 10-20% of the price of equipment for cable. My own thinking is if a component is that cable dependent then Wilson should supply it with the speaker. Lord knows there is enough profit margin for that. I don't think it's my job to make a speaker in that price range sound good.
 
Gregadd

So anything goes? .. and one must simply admit anything and everything as being correct? .. No debate, no discussions?.. I will not debate or challenge professions of preferences but when the claim is worded as a fact or the truth, then I shall...
 
Frantz I re-read my post. Nothing in it prevents you from challenging anything you like. Your point is there was no proof. In my mind that means it reflects his personal experience. I assume he is honest. That does not mean he is correct. You have done little more than point out his lack of proof. I suggested that those that doubt him conduct there own test. It is not productive to keep arguing back and forth.

However feel free to do so until your heart's content.

It's time for me to turn off the computer and enjoy some music.
 
Gregadd

So anything goes? .. and one must simply admit anything and everything as being correct? .. No debate, no discussions?.. I will not debate or challenge professions of preferences but when the claim is worded as a fact or the truth, then I shall...

Actually I for one find this tiresome. People are acting like two year olds around here. Why. Why. Why. Why.

How about we have a technical forum and technical comments are restricted to that forum so the rest of us who would like to talk audio can do so without feeling like they're getting hit over the head with a baseball bat every time they make a post.
 
Frantz I re-read my post. Nothing in it prevents you from challenging anything you like. Your point is there was no proof. In my mind that means it reflects his personal experience. I assume he is honest. That does not mean he is correct. You have done little more than point out his lack of proof. I suggested that those that doubt him conduct there own test. It is not productive to keep arguing back and forth.

However feel free to do so until your heart's content.

It's time for me to turn off the computer and enjoy some music.

Gregadd

Last reply on the subject and likely my last post on this thread ... It is a discussion forum, and we debate and we argue and we learn. Often from our mistakes ..

I don't need to push the subject any further I will, just like you said .. turn off this PC and turn on the other computers , the music servers ...

I will do the same , it is ugly here in Florida with some Tropical storm making its way through the area, although this turned out to be not as bad as we feared ...

Music I will enjoy ...
 
...You have done little more than point out his lack of proof...It is not productive to keep arguing back and forth...

Are we reading the same thread? An engineering model was proffered. We are now asking for it.

As for the threads productivity, I agree. We have asked just for clarifications of statements and promises made but not received. And so yet another cable thread goes.
 
If he deos not give it then it does not exist.
 
@ myles... yes, you've summarized my observations exactly. And I agree about the source being critical. In my opinion, the biggest bang for the buck is going with a very-low-jitter source (for us miscreant users of digital) and really good cables.

@ everybody... I'm definitely not trying to promote a particular concept as being the only way to go, or say that there aren't a variety of other considerations, etc.; basically my purpose here is to share a LOT of experience tangling (as it were) with cables and gear, and that to simply focus on the speakers (the biggest and most impressive part of a system) or the monster amps isn't necessarily the best way to allocate one's budget.

When one goes through all kinds of gear, you eventually build up an idea of where the real shortcomings and difficult areas are, and where the technology is so good that even inexpensive gear is going to sound very well.

So, room, cabling, source would be the top three on my list, revised to incorporate Myles' points (I basically took the source for granted).

It's really easy, in my opinion, to get terrific speakers and amps for (relatively) small amounts of money. There are so many ways to get this part of the system right. Cabling and sources are very difficult to get correctly. So many sources have all kinds of jitter, and when you finally get a low-jitter source, it's pretty amazing.

What I often see is people spending big bucks on the most visible components (speakers, amps) and then getting cables (with the remainder of their budget) that are nowhere nearly as good as the speakers and amps. The quality level then drops down to the lowest common denominator, so to speak, as the money spent on the speakers and amps is somewhat wasted.

Myles, what to you think? It seems to me that this is the main point we're trying to make. Watch out for the weak links.
 
I for one am not going to buy into any theory/dogma that states a requirement for $7K speaker cables in order for an expensive pair of speakers not to get beaten out in sound quality by one of its lesser quality brethern from the same manufacturer because the cheaper pair of speakers has more expensive cables attached. If I lash up a pair of speakers with $2K speaker cables and they don't sing for all their worth, it's sledge hammer time. I currently have a 10' pair of MIT S3 Shotgun speaker cables that I bought brand new for around $1K. The cables have the magic network boxes with some amount of magic poles of articulation (whatever the hell that means) and they look cool. More importantly, I do think they are a very good set of speaker cables. After reading this thread, I guess I should be bummed out that I am sucking the life out of my speakers with crappy $1K MIT cables. Guess what? I'm not because it's all bullshit. The differences in speakers will always swamp the differences in speaker cables and anyone who thinks otherwise is a dolt. Speaker cables obviously have some influence on the sound you hear, but that influence is just a spice in the recipe and not the main dish. The speaker is the main dish. You are not going to make a crappy speaker sound good with $10K worth of speakers cables and you are not going to make a great speaker sound horrible with $100 worth of speaker cables. I would take a pair of Magico V3 speakers lashed up with 10 ga zip wire before I would take a pair of Harbeth M40.1s with their ugly looking thin-walled enclosures singing along with the music that have $10K worth of speaker cables attached to them. Not to be picking on the ugly Harbeths, my point is that a superior speaker is a superior speaker and you are not going to beat the sound quality with an inferior speaker which has more expensive speaker cables attached to it. Anyone who thinks so will be highly courted by all cable manufacturers. I stopped believing in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus a long time ago, but I see some people still believe in make believe.
 
Did I stun everyone into silence?
 
nah.

not much to say when someone posts some common sense, perhaps other than to say it is not so common.

makes a change from the stupid posts you see on audio forums.
 
Dolt speaking. Actually speaker cables can make a hell of a difference. Most of the very expensive cables are terrible on my system. One of the cheapest, Speltz, taught me something very important about my system. The SCs need to be naked save for the scantiest barrier to shorts. They need to be extremely thin, but 12 gauge for full current. The difference is phenomenal.
 
Not a good idea on this thread. Silence is better.:)

I read this but wanted to share something with the collective.

I usually don't watch TV. The other, surfing the channel I landed on Iron Chef or one of these cooking/cuisine shows. Several chefs were to taste a dish and had to guess the ingredients in it ... Blinded.. in other words they truly did not know what ingredients were in the dish ... 4 of the 5 failed ... to guess what wee the spices

Furthermore the spices were brought to them, and there again blinded .. they, the chefs, professional chefs, 4 out of 5 failed to guess the spices, granted these were not your basic , utterly well known spices but ...
 
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Dolt speaking. Actually speaker cables can make a hell of a difference. Most of the very expensive cables are terrible on my system. One of the cheapest, Speltz, taught me something very important about my system. The SCs need to be naked save for the scantiest barrier to shorts. They need to be extremely thin, but 12 gauge for full current. The difference is phenomenal.

I know that speaker cables do make a difference-I want to be very clear on that. However, I just don't believe that two different speaker systems built by the same manufacturer where one of those speaker systems is much higher quality than the other that the cheaper of the two systems will out-perform the more expensive speakers if it has more expensive speaker cables attached to it.
 

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