The Polarity List

FrantzM · Jan 28, 2012

Bruce B said:
If you had a more than one woofer in a system... as in the EA MM3, and one woofer was wired backwards, you would get a cancellation effect where it would not sound "right". Ask Mike about that one!

Bruce not the same thing as a recording out of phase.. If you have two speakers reproducing the same sound i is almost intuitive to me that there can be cancellation. Some maths ...same vector but different or opposite phase there has to be some cancellation.
We are talking about a recording out of phase and i still am wondering howit manisfest itself? ..Not with a hole in the middle for sure since both speakers now when reproducing the same sound/signal will be in pahse respective to each other .. assuming the system /speakers wired correctly ... Would like more explanation ..

MylesBAstor · Jan 28, 2012

FrantzM said:
mep

I have a hard time visualizing this... I can't figure out the rarefaction the drum vibrates out of phase with the original maybe but it vibrates and will always create a sound ... Let me get it to mind experiment. Let's suppose you take any of the properly polarized recording on this list and invert BOTH of your speakers terminals would you hear a real problem? Unless you have the original at hand it will play like music I would think .. I sincerely want to understand ... I also know some preamps do the same and I think I had a C-J which was doing it .. Never mattered the least to me .. that was then or maybe I am insensitive to the effect

Yes the cj preamps are a single gain stage and as a result, invert absolute polarity. So one needs to reverse the speaker leads for correct polarity.

MylesBAstor · Jan 28, 2012

mep said:
Frantz-It may be debatable if it's audible to you, but the point I was trying to make is if your system has reversed polarity or a recording has reversed polarity, when your woofers should be pushing air out into the room (excursion), they will sucking into the cabinet (rarefaction) instead. Will it make sound? Sure. Is it the correct sound? Not really. I think some people are more sensitive to absolute polarity than others. And maybe even the most sensitive couldn't detect a change if we tied them down to a chair, blindfolded them, gave their ears a good boxing, and then asked them to detect the change between correct polarity and reversed polarity. I could be wrong though.

And hearing it also depends upon the speakers

FrantzM · Jan 28, 2012

MylesBAstor said:
And hearing it also depends upon the speakers

I still don't get it and I am certain I am not alone...
And what speakers would allow me to listen to this. I have heard quite a number of good speakers and never bothered about this .. I've heard JATP on speakers ranging from Rogers LS3/5 to Wilson Alexandria ... Steve Williams own X-2, yet it doesn't seem he noticed it so ... Not sure that allows me to understand what is the problem ... Still confused ...

Robh3606 · Jan 28, 2012

I must admit I have always been scratching my head on Absolute Polarity Threads. What's the point? There is no recording "Standard" and does it really matter considering it's an AC signal and once you get past the starting point of the first cycle what's the difference?? It's an alternating signal the polarity/phase changes all the time.

Rob

MylesBAstor · Jan 29, 2012

FrantzM said:
I still don't get it and I am certain I am not alone...
And what speakers would allow me to listen to this. I have heard quite a number of good speakers and never bothered about this .. I've heard JATP on speakers ranging from Rogers LS3/5 to Wilson Alexandria ... Steve Williams own X-2, yet it doesn't seem he noticed it so ... Not sure that allows me to understand what is the problem ... Still confused ...

The idea of absolute phase is to preserve the phase of the original signal. There is a book titled The Wood Effect by Clark Johnson that describes. I have inserted an excerpt from a Stereophile article that should help explain what absolute phase is. I think this is what the Infinity Owners Manual was talking about.

From an old Stereophile article:

Absolute polarity: Clark Johnsen's The Wood Effect (footnote 1) reviews evidence and opinion on the importance of this variable. Absolute polarity (sometimes called absolute phase) is best thought of as a system characteristic, and refers to whether a sound that originally started out as compression followed by rarefaction (ie, positive then negative) is reproduced that way rather than as rarefaction followed by compression (ie, negative then positive). Given components either maintain or reverse absolute polarity, with the result that the system as a whole may be in correct polarity for one source (eg, CD player) but not for another (eg, phono). Recordings themselves may be recorded in or out of absolute polarity, and, to make things even more complicated, polarity may not be the same for the whole recording, or may vary for different instruments in a multi-track mix.

The audibility of absolute polarity differences under laboratory conditions with test signals has been demonstrated by Stanley Lipshitz and others, but there is some controversy about how important (as opposed to statistically significant) the effect is under normal listening conditions with less than purist recordings, and about how sensitive different people are to reversal of polarity. As far as I'm concerned, although I can hear the difference with some recordings (the Chesky Test CD provides a good demonstration), I'm not driven to a fit of frenzy whenever a reversed-polarity recording assaults my ears. I certainly would not want to switch speaker cables (Johnsen suggests this is more effective than electronic signal reversal) whenever I suspect the recording to be of the wrong polarity.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue1/cjwoodeffect.htm

bblue · Jan 29, 2012

To some degree determining absolute polarity is an acquired listening skill. Once you realize (or are shown by demonstration) what the differences sound like, it's fairly easy to assess. Until then, however, it may go unnoticed.

Best thing is to utilize a piece of equipment in your audio chain that can switch polarity on both channels simultaneously, and do some flipping while listening carefully. And perhaps use the list shown earlier in this thread as a general guide -- I don't consider it completely accurate, though.

I have noticed that the vast majority of SACD/DVD-A releases and vinyl remasters are correctly positive phase, though there may be some mics or processing chains in the original recordings that don't maintain the correct phase. More than likely accidentally.

--Bill

bblue · Jan 29, 2012

Bruce B said:
I know everything I've done for FIM has correct polarity.

Bruce,

Do you correct it if a master comes to you with inverted polarity, or do you just make sure that your chain is non-inverting?

Do you determine polarity only by listening or waveform exam? Or both?

--Bill

flez007 · Jan 29, 2012

I had access to a version of this list some years back, when I had a DAC that allowed me to invert polarity, so I had the ritual of checking and correct settings prior playing any particular disc...it drove me nuts!, I changed for a Reimyo CDP and since then decided to forget any polarity issues and enjoy ever after

FrantzM · Jan 29, 2012

Hi
I apologize to the original OP for my next paragraph which will be blunt...

It is what I suspected: "much ado about nothing"

Reading the passage Myles quoted there is nothing that would change my point of view and likely that of 98.5% of the WBF audience. Bowing out

Steve Williams · Jan 29, 2012

Frantz. Two things

1. I am with you because I find it next to impossible for me to detect a difference

2. In spite of this I always make certain that my cables are wired re proper polarity

Finally I have to be careful because I have an inverting preamp. Hence I reverse the polarity of my speaker cables coming out of my amp to the speakers

DaveyF · Jan 29, 2012

FrantzM said:
Hi
I apologize to the original OP for my next paragraph which will be blunt...

It is what I suspected: "much ado about nothing"

Reading the passage Myles quoted there is nothing that would change my point of view and likely that of 98.5% of the WBF audience. Bowing out

No need to apologize Frantz, everyone has a different opinion as to what they believe is important to them in this hobby.

OTOH, I am of the opinion that hearing polarity differences is fairly easy and obvious. As Bblue (BIll) stated above, once you have listened to the difference it is fairly easy to "assess".

I am lucky that on my DAC, I have a polarity switch which enables instant 'AB'ing....
On my subwoofer, there is also a polarity switch, which does less duty than the DAC, but was put there as the manufacturer( REL) also believes that a subwoofer sounds better when it is pushing rather than pulling

mep · Jan 29, 2012

DaveyF said:
On my subwoofer, there is also a polarity switch, which does less duty than the DAC, but was put there as the manufacturer( REL) also believes that a subwoofer sounds better when it is pushing rather than pulling

The reasons for having a phase switch on your sub goes deeper than the reason you stated. You need to have all of your speakers playing with the same polarity. If your preamp inverted phase and you corrected it by flipping your speaker cables at the speakers, your sub would not be in the same polarity as your main speakers if you were coming straight out of the preamp into the subs. That’s why they give you the switch. Having your subs playing in opposite polarity from the rest of the speakers is much more audible than when your entire system is wired “correctly” and you are trying to hear differences caused by recordings that have the polarity inverted.

DaveyF · Jan 29, 2012

mep said:
The reasons for having a phase switch on your sub goes deeper than the reason you stated. You need to have all of your speakers playing with the same polarity. If your preamp inverted phase and you corrected it by flipping your speaker cables at the speakers, your sub would not be in the same polarity as your main speakers if you were coming straight out of the preamp into the subs. That’s why they give you the switch. Having your subs playing in opposite polarity from the rest of the speakers is much more audible than when your entire system is wired “correctly” and you are trying to hear differences caused by recordings that have the polarity inverted.

Mark, That is correct...however, the preferred hook-up of a REL is to the amp and NOT the preamp, which is the way that I utilize the connection. The polarity switch is still a useful tool regardless, IMO.

FrantzM · Jan 29, 2012

DaveyF said:
No need to apologize Frantz, everyone has a different opinion as to what they believe is important to them in this hobby.

OTOH, I am of the opinion that hearing polarity differences is fairly easy and obvious. As Bblue (BIll) stated above, once you have listened to the difference it is fairly easy to "assess".

I am lucky that on my DAC, I have a polarity switch which enables instant 'AB'ing....
On my subwoofer, there is also a polarity switch, which does less duty than the DAC, but was put there as the manufacturer( REL) also believes that a subwoofer sounds better when it is pushing rather than pulling

As mep replied before the subwoofer polarity switch is a much, much different affair. I actually think the degree of confusion is immense on the issue. if you read carefully the quotes by Myles .. In most cases there is NO WAY to ascertain what would be the correct "polarity" of a given recording. With multi-tracking and all the mastering manipulation that occurs between the takes and what reaches the listener.
We can always dwell on this and I thank you for resurrecting this list. There is however a reason it was forgotten... The Polarity of an album may well be the least understood and least audible effect in all Audio.

georgelouis · Jan 29, 2012

Dear Music-Loving Audiophiles:

If you have a passion for music then, FYI at the following links:Thirty Years of Digital and the 92% Solution at:http://www.absolutepolarity.com,

How to Play Most if Not All Digital Media in Absolute Polarity at http://www.ultrabitplatinum.com/?page_id=1893,

A Speculation Regarding Perception of Detail at http://www.ultrabitplatinum.com/?page_id=88,

and perhaps Ruminations on “Absolute fidelity”, Stereo Imaging, and
Beyond High Fidelity at
http://www.ultrabitplatinum.com/?page_id=1513

Best regards,

George S. Louis, Esq., CEO
Digital Systems & Solutions
& Perfect Polarity Pundit
Phone: 619-401-9876
Website: www.GetBetterHiFi.com

Bruce B · Jan 29, 2012

bblue said:
Bruce,

Do you correct it if a master comes to you with inverted polarity, or do you just make sure that your chain is non-inverting?

Do you determine polarity only by listening or waveform exam? Or both?

--Bill

I can usually tell if something doesn't sound right. It's one of the first things I check. I always correct a file that has polarity issues. I have never heard a file sound worse by doing it.

georgelouis · Jan 29, 2012

Dear Music-Loving Audiophiles:

If you have a passion for music then, FYI at the following links:Thirty Years of Digital and the 92% Solution at:http://www.absolutepolarity.com,

How to Play Most if Not All Digital Media in Absolute Polarity at http://www.ultrabitplatinum.com/?page_id=1893,

A Speculation Regarding Perception of Detail at http://www.ultrabitplatinum.com/?page_id=88,

and perhaps Ruminations on “Absolute fidelity”, Stereo Imaging, and
Beyond High Fidelity at
http://www.ultrabitplatinum.com/?page_id=1513

Best regards,

George S. Louis, Esq., CEO
Digital Systems & Solutions
& Perfect Polarity Pundit
Phone: 619-401-9876
Website: www.GetBetterHiFi.com

Bill Hart · Jun 5, 2012

I read The Wood Effect years ago and get the various distinctions being made here (including whether one component is in phase with another vs 'absolute phase' of the original recording). I experimented with this a while ago in the 'absolute phase' sense of recordings and still fiddle with the phase of my woofers relative to the horns occasionally. And, I can hear differences sometimes, on some recordings, in the bass, although I sorta gave up paying attention to the absolute phase of recordings for one reason, which is also a question: how can we be sure that in the recording process, the absolute phase of the recording of each instrument was respected through to the end product? Isn't it likely a mishmash, i.e. the bass drum, or string bass may have been recorded at 0 or + and other instruments at 180 or -? And what about the mixing process? I could see it being more apparent on very simple recordings, with a single instrument or a small combo, but particularly with multi-track and stuff getting punched in, effects being added (what does something as simple as a guitar pedal do to phase?) I guess this is one of the reasons why I figured my mental health was more important. But, I'm not being 'absolute' about my position here- it is a question.
PS I see Frantz just made this point, see thread on 'Aging is a Bitch', etc.

The Polarity List

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member Sponsor

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator

Well-Known Member

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member

Well-Known Member

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member

New Member

WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads