More fuel for the measuring-versus-listening debate

Mark Seaton

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May 21, 2010
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Bravo to Doug for a well communicated point. Words were chosen correctly, and I look forward to seeing some focus on the design process as it sounds like he will be looking beyond just creating a flat line on one particular graph. Without a doubt, excluding listening or measurement will always leave you with unanswered questions. The topic of loudspeaker measurements on different items is always a sticky one. Best of luck in the effort.
 

RUR

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Apr 20, 2010
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An excellent article which, in fact, reminded me of some of your posts on this topic, Mark, on this and other fora.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Is there a measurement vs. listening debate? Really? I've seen the measurement matters/doesn't matter debate. Measurement vs. listening seems to just be a straw man argument in that debate.

None of that, of course, prevents this from being a good article about speaker design methods.

Tim
 

microstrip

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Very enlightening article about the use of modern computing tools and technology in speaker design. Most engineering products are developed in a similar way nowadays.

But we should note

" However, among competent designers who are well versed with and have access to good computer and measuring tools and know well the parameters they're trying to meet, my guess is that at least 80% of their design work is done before their ears get involved. That's not to say that listening isn't important -- that final 20%, or whatever it may be, is what matters most. "

For us, consumers, the crude question is : how can we evaluate this final phase, that "matters most" ?
 

Phelonious Ponk

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The earlier article he links to is at the very heart of the "is measurement important?" debate.

Tim

...I really like this guy so far...
 
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Gregadd

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Of course would should measure and listen. Back to my smoke detector analogy. Do we sit and burn because the alarm did not sound? Or do we run form the house because the alarm sounded and there is no fire.
When we measure what we do hear or we hear something we don't measure. That's what it's all about.
 

kach22i

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FYI:

How to Listen: A Course on How to Critically Evaluate the Quality of Recorded and Reproduced Sound

http://seanolive.blogspot.com/
By Sean Olive ...........found as a link in LineArray's homepage via the DIY forum
Next month, I will be giving a one day course on How to Listen at the 2011 ALMA Winter Symposium in Las Vegas,held Jan. 4th and 5th, just prior to the CES show. The symposium will also feature other courses, workshops and paper sessions on loudspeaker and headphone design, testing and evaluation.
 
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Phelonious Ponk

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The thing that he doesn't get into, but should be a part of the process IMO, is listening blind, even if "informal" and inconclusive, against a reference. Expectation bias is very real, and it works both ways. Get fabulous measurements from an exciting new computer model? The odds of your hearing every bit of that excitement and fabulousness are pretty high and the argument that "experienced" ears have many more nuanced expectations and are, therefore, even more vulnerable to bias is pretty sound.

Tim
 

JackD201

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The other extreme is prolonged evaluation. By prolonged I mean long enough that one is out of the "crush" phase. Unfortunately this is becoming nearly impossible as B&M dealers are disappearing.

The crush phase is a tricky one. I've latched on to positive attributes too easily and overlooked shortcomings that should have been obvious before. It's cost me but I'd like to think I've learned at least a little from each experience.

Being an audio dealer as well as a consumer, consistency, build quality, engineering excellence are all doubly important for me. Numbers are the easiest way to confirm these things. One product failure can wipe out earnings from multiple sales even when under warranty. Back and forth freight from South East Asia to the US or Europe alone can cost as much as the product itself.

Can you imagine the problems one would face if one were selling a loudspeaker from a company that didn't measure and benchmark maniacally? You could end up getting replacement parts that made one speaker sound different from the other channel. We all know where THAT would lead. We audio lovers are a heck of a picky bunch.
 

Scott Borduin

WBF Technical Expert (Software)
Jan 22, 2011
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The other extreme is prolonged evaluation. By prolonged I mean long enough that one is out of the "crush" phase. Unfortunately this is becoming nearly impossible as B&M dealers are disappearing.

The crush phase is a tricky one. I've latched on to positive attributes too easily and overlooked shortcomings that should have been obvious before. It's cost me but I'd like to think I've learned at least a little from each experience.

Although not explicitly mentioned in the SoundStage editorial, this is perhaps the most important reason for including measurements in reviews. If a reviewer finds a product to be exciting and novel, is this because it has truly higher fidelity to the source? Or is it because the product is non-linear - distorting - in a way the reviewer happens to find pleasing? The product might be compensating for issues elsewhere in the system or room. Or it might be exaggerating certain aural triggers that are important to a specific reviewer, in the short term, but not to the larger audience, or over a longer term. If a product gets a rave review, but measures poorly, it is a red flag that the review should be looked at even more critically than usual.

John Atkinson at Stereophile is good at using measurements in just such a way, and I appreciate Stereophile more because of it. I remember some time ago a SP reviewer raving about some "new technology" interconnect - which, upon testing, was found to introduce large amounts of distortion, the obvious implication being that the reviewer found the distortion to be a euphonic benefit.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Although not explicitly mentioned in the SoundStage editorial, this is perhaps the most important reason for including measurements in reviews. If a reviewer finds a product to be exciting and novel, is this because it has truly higher fidelity to the source? Or is it because the product is non-linear - distorting - in a way the reviewer happens to find pleasing? The product might be compensating for issues elsewhere in the system or room. Or it might be exaggerating certain aural triggers that are important to a specific reviewer, in the short term, but not to the larger audience, or over a longer term. If a product gets a rave review, but measures poorly, it is a red flag that the review should be looked at even more critically than usual.

John Atkinson at Stereophile is good at using measurements in just such a way, and I appreciate Stereophile more because of it. I remember some time ago a SP reviewer raving about some "new technology" interconnect - which, upon testing, was found to introduce large amounts of distortion, the obvious implication being that the reviewer found the distortion to be a euphonic benefit.

That is why my mantra has always been (when evaluating something new) is whether I heard something better or just something different
 

microstrip

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(...) If a product gets a rave review, but measures poorly, it is a red flag that the review should be looked at even more critically than usual.

John Atkinson at Stereophile is good at using measurements in just such a way, and I appreciate Stereophile more because of it. I remember some time ago a SP reviewer raving about some "new technology" interconnect - which, upon testing, was found to introduce large amounts of distortion, the obvious implication being that the reviewer found the distortion to be a euphonic benefit.

You are pointing an important aspect of current, very limited measures - they can be used to find the suspects of bad behavior, but not to rank products.

Considering high-end, a particular problem is that we do not have any decent measurements of the top speakers almost everyone considers fabulous - the Alexandria, the The Sonus Faber, the Maggies 20.1 and many other 5 figure speakers.

Should we ban them because of this unavailability of measured data? :eek:
 

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