Live unamplified music v home audio, another thread/perspective

Kal Rubinson

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2010
2,362
706
1,700
NYC
www.stereophile.com
Can someone please explain what's probably a very simple concept ?
One hears a band play live in concert (a hall v listening room)
The band is in front of you (just as our spkrs are)
The sound is fired at us (just as at home)
But the big difference is that audiophilia strives to control reflections and have the driest acoustic possible, whereas the live experience makes the most of the hall, no matter how complex, or large it is
And then the MCH proponents attempt to add it all back in

First, controlling reflections is a goal but achieving the driest acoustic is not.
Second, the difference is simple. The reflections (and other acoustical effects) in the listening room are never the same as the reflections in the original concert hall, club, arena or studio. By suppressing the conflicting ambiance contributed by the listening room and replacing it with the ambiance of the recording site with multichannel sources, one can achieve an experience that more successfully approaches listening at the original venue.

How come there's such a dichotomy, w all the top systems and rooms looking to tame reflections, the live experience made visceral by the totality of reverberance?
No dichotomy. Clearly, even though they are spurious, it is necessary to retain some controlled room reflections when listening in stereo in order to simulate the ambiance but one prefers less of those when listening in multichannel to minimize the conflict.

I ask because I recently listened to a pair of Apogee Divas in a 20x40x15 room, and it was damped to the hilt to try and make it sound good, and kinda fail, fast forward to a few days ago where in a 30x40x20 room, totally untreated and undamped, I heard the Oboe Group soar and conquer
Speaker choice and room size will affect the sound, of course, but one never wants to listen in an anechoic chamber.
 

Kal Rubinson

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2010
2,362
706
1,700
NYC
www.stereophile.com
You have two sets of ambient acoustic: That which is on the recording and that which is generated, in situ, from your listening room. In two channel audio, you are often (not always...take Apogees and other big planars for example) trying to minimize the impact from your room acoustic superimposing upon the acoustic space in a recording. Big Planars do minimize side wall, ceiling and floor reflections but they do give you a large wall reflection from behind them. This adds to the sense of spaciousness because of the time delay but doesn't usually alter the tonal balance too much. Minimizing side walls is really great for image specificity and ceiling and floor bounce elimination helps with maintaining and even frequency response (I got +-2 db in room with my Acoustats from 200-12000Hz).
Agreed as long as the reader does not mistake your use of "minimize" to mean "attempt to eliminate." In two channel with normally mastered recordings, a fair degree of room reflections are required as land as they are linear.

Multichannel spreads the recorded acoustic around the room in an attempt to simulate a larger listening environement...like a concert hall.
It is not just a matter of spreading or redistribution but the recreation of the original directionality of the ambiance.
 

audioguy

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
2,794
73
1,635
Near Atlanta, GA but not too near!
Some 40 years ago, there was a small speaker manufacturer in Ft Worth who had a very enlightening demo set up. He had a number of fairly small rooms in a long hallway, all about the same size. In a room at one end of the hallway (Room A), he had various live instruments playing (piano, drums, etc -- completely untreated if I recall). At the other end of the hallway, in another room (Room B) , he had a pair of his speakers set up, also in an untreated room and driven by a live mic feed from Room A. These were anything but "high end" speakers, but very "musical". The comparison was startling. While untreated room A was heard in untreated Room B, they should not have sounded much alike, participially given the quality of the speakers (and electronics) used. BUT, Room B sounded REALLY close to Room A. As you might imagine, he sold a LOT of speakers that way.

Fast forward about 20 years, and I attended another similar demonstration. This time by a recording engineer who was a (SigTech) customer of mine. In his very lively hard surface up stairs living area, he had a grand piano. In his recording studio (highly treated) he was suing a pair of Dunlavy SC-VI's as "monitors". The mics he used upstairs were of the highest quality as were the electronics in his studio (all Mark Levinson if I recall correctly). Unlike the previous example, the sound in his studio sounded nothing like the sound upstairs. While the piano most certainly sounded like a piano, it did not sound like the same "space".

In theory, the results of these two demos were opposite of what I would have expected. In the first example, the reflections of Room A should have had the reflections of Room B added to them and destroyed the ability to sound so much alike, while in the second example, the playback area added little of its own distortion so should have sounded more like the upstairs area.

I have no idea what any of this means nor am I suggesting that these are two scientific tests of live vs recorded. Just an interesting couple of data points.
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,538
5,069
1,228
Switzerland
Agreed as long as the reader does not mistake your use of "minimize" to mean "attempt to eliminate." In two channel with normally mastered recordings, a fair degree of room reflections are required as land as they are linear.

It is not just a matter of spreading or redistribution but the recreation of the original directionality of the ambiance.

I do not see that it is possible to recreate the original directionality of the ambiance with a few speakers. Therefore, I would stick with using the terminology of "simulation" of the original ambiance.
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,538
5,069
1,228
Switzerland
Some 40 years ago, there was a small speaker manufacturer in Ft Worth who had a very enlightening demo set up. He had a number of fairly small rooms in a long hallway, all about the same size. In a room at one end of the hallway (Room A), he had various live instruments playing (piano, drums, etc -- completely untreated if I recall). At the other end of the hallway, in another room (Room B) , he had a pair of his speakers set up, also in an untreated room and driven by a live mic feed from Room A. These were anything but "high end" speakers, but very "musical". The comparison was startling. While untreated room A was heard in untreated Room B, they should not have sounded much alike, participially given the quality of the speakers (and electronics) used. BUT, Room B sounded REALLY close to Room A. As you might imagine, he sold a LOT of speakers that way.

Fast forward about 20 years, and I attended another similar demonstration. This time by a recording engineer who was a (SigTech) customer of mine. In his very lively hard surface up stairs living area, he had a grand piano. In his recording studio (highly treated) he was suing a pair of Dunlavy SC-VI's as "monitors". The mics he used upstairs were of the highest quality as were the electronics in his studio (all Mark Levinson if I recall correctly). Unlike the previous example, the sound in his studio sounded nothing like the sound upstairs. While the piano most certainly sounded like a piano, it did not sound like the same "space".

In theory, the results of these two demos were opposite of what I would have expected. In the first example, the reflections of Room A should have had the reflections of Room B added to them and destroyed the ability to sound so much alike, while in the second example, the playback area added little of its own distortion so should have sounded more like the upstairs area.

I have no idea what any of this means nor am I suggesting that these are two scientific tests of live vs recorded. Just an interesting couple of data points.

It kind of makes sense though if the two rooms (A and B) for the first demo were essentially identical. You will not get new types of reflections but mostly reinforcement of the same room acoustics. This could be good or bad depending on the actual quality of the room acoustics to begin with. In the second example, you are getting two different sets of acoustics superimposed on each other. Which works best would probably depend on a lot of things but in your specific cases the untreated, identical rooms worked better.

In my case, it was very visceral to hear the recording back in the same room and direct but a bit too raw. A softer room acoustic allowed a bit more relaxed presentation. Now, it could have been that the original performance would have also been too raw for most listeners (it was ultra dynamic to the point of my ears pulsing on some peaks). One the other hand, my more explicit room acoustics may have enhanced some softer recordings to sound more "live".
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,601
11,693
4,410
I think to sort these queries Mike needs to get a MM7 for the center with a 458 mono, and two MM3 with 108 for rear. Or all 458 and MM7

the MCH ship has sailed here in the barn. I gave it plenty of opportunity. it's all about the music.

last night I had a visitor from OZ and we played 4+ hours of vinyl. it was a fully immersive experience.

no doubt that MCH can also offer that 'differently' with more modest overall efforts, which I respect and agree with.
 

DaveC

Industry Expert
Nov 16, 2014
3,899
2,142
495
You have two sets of ambient acoustic: That which is on the recording and that which is generated, in situ, from your listening room. In two channel audio, you are often (not always...take Apogees and other big planars for example) trying to minimize the impact from your room acoustic superimposing upon the acoustic space in a recording. Big Planars do minimize side wall, ceiling and floor reflections but they do give you a large wall reflection from behind them. This adds to the sense of spaciousness because of the time delay but doesn't usually alter the tonal balance too much. Minimizing side walls is really great for image specificity and ceiling and floor bounce elimination helps with maintaining and even frequency response (I got +-2 db in room with my Acoustats from 200-12000Hz).

Multichannel spreads the recorded acoustic around the room in an attempt to simulate a larger listening environement...like a concert hall. Of course your room acoustic will interfere here as well but perhaps it is more swamped now by more active steering of the amibence signal. I personally have yet to hear a really convincing multi-channel setup so color me skeptical on this approach.

I did an interesting experiment some years ago. I had my ex- playing her violin right in between my 8 foot + tall Acoustats, while I was recording it to a R2R analog deck (1970s TEAC machine) in two channel mono (I had only 1 working microphone so I split the signal to both channels). The result is very enlightening. I had a very dry acoustic in my room and so the playback, which very dynamic and present, is very dry sounding with a quick decay of notes. This was great for practice (as she wanted to hear what she was doing) as fingering and bowing are quite explicit but it is not the beautiful lush tone we hear in a big hall. When I played this back in my own room it was too much because I essentially was hearing my room's acoustic...twice. Dry on dry became pretty wiry and sharp. In other rooms with a different acoustic signature the sound of this recording was easier to live with and in some cases it was downright spooky with the presence it delivered. My room and Acoustats were great for hearing deep into the acoustic space that was on a recording and how musicians were placed upon that virtual stage. This is one area where my horns are not as good...perhaps if they were dipole horns it would be another story...that back wave makes a difference in ambience generation I think.

I'd guess not... I have experimented with running my midrange horns "dipole", which is in quotes because it's not really dipole because it can't cancel, it's more bipole in behavior. I got some reticulated foam which I cut into pieces and layered to attenuate the backwave and the more it was attenuated the better the sound got... honestly the only positive is not having a solid surface behind the midrange driver to reflect sound back through the cone, but this is very easily dealt with by cabinet design and stuffing.

I think people like these effects in a system that's not capable reproducing fine detail and spatial cues, but if it can provide an experience as Al M has described then the rear-firing part of the thing is just getting in the way.
 

DaveC

Industry Expert
Nov 16, 2014
3,899
2,142
495
Many 2-channel systems do not properly energize the room. As a result, the soundstage is experienced as an image that you "look at", something that is not immersive but rather, somewhat detached in front of you -- something "happening over there", rather than something that fully reaches and involves you. I suspect that primarily in those cases multi-channel will be experienced as a large step forward. Yet once your 2-channel system, aided by proper component selection, speaker/listening position set-up, and possibly room treatment, provides a fully immersive experience where the instruments are still located with their proper size within a spatially deep soundstage, yet their sound robustly propagates forward towards you and energizes the entire room -- as live sound often energizes the venue -- , then I assume multi-channel will less likely be seen as providing a substantial additive advantage.

And in terms of tone and timbral resolution, fully optimized 2-channel reproduction will not be easy to beat by multi-channel.

+1...
 

marty

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
3,039
4,208
2,520
United States
Many years ago when I lived in LA, I invited someone from the music industry over to hear the big rig, which consisted of some CLS stats, ARC monobloc tube amps with VMPS subs and an all vinyl front end. He listened for a while and turned to me and said, "very nice, but its just not realistic because there is no surround sound". Naturally, I was deflated, but it lit the fire to explore surround/MC which I have always done when the opportunity arose to listen to SOA manifestations of this technology. Over the years, each and every time I've heard a formidable surround/MC system, I keep coming away with the same thought. Maybe in theory it should sound better, but it simply does not. It's just not real in a compelling way. For all its limitations, it seems that a good 2 CH rig always wins the day. It seems as though "less is more". As to why that is, I'm not sure. I suspect that that it might be that in the case of missing ambient sources, our brain can fill in the details in a case of relative omission, which seems better tolerated than a case where the brain has to reject spurious additive information in most of the surround/MC set-ups I have heard.
 
Last edited:

853guy

Active Member
Aug 14, 2013
1,161
10
38
Hello gents (and ladies, if you’re here),

To me, the live thing and the home audio thing are not and never can be directly comparable because of the nature of the event, but are nevertheless related in the way we as humans perceive them.

My perspective is that live music requires an ear/brain mechanism in order for the subject to perceive whether whatever’s happening to be “music” or not. There’s no need for any intermediary mechanism.

Home audio requires an ear/brain mechanism in order for the subject to perceive whether whatever’s happening to be “music” or not, but cannot be perceived without an inter-dependent chain of electro-acoustic and/or electro-mechanical intermediaries, that at the very least must comprise a microphone/mic-pre (1), an analogue or digital recorder, a storage/playback medium, an analogue or digital player, an amplifier, a speaker and a bunch on cables (for a minimally miked, minimally processed recording excluding any mixing or mastering).

As a point of further distinction, in the case of a live event, the subject perceives the event in real (linear) time. In the case of that same event being recorded and then played back, the subject still perceives the event in real time (since the subject cannot exist outside of time) but relative to non-linear time. That is, despite the live performance and the recording of that same performance being similar in content, nevertheless the final recording is its own event, in which whatever pitches were given amplitude in real time and captured during the live event are then transformed via a primary electro-acoustical process and slaved to a medium operating in non-linear time that must then be played back via a secondary electro-acoustical process also operating in non-linear time (2). That is, the audio recording/playback chain is always a time-variant (and non-linear) system by definition.

On any recording we’re playing back - irrespective of the level of gear involved in both the recording, mixing, mastering and playback chain - we’re never not listening to that chain and it’s never not operating in non-linear time.

Nevertheless, that I perceive what I hear at home to be “music”, and not mistake what I hear for a collection of non-musical sounds, suggests not that any home hi-fi system and recording/mixing/mastering chain is or can be “truly transparent (linear)”, but rather, that my brain - and by extension, your brain - has evolved to discern music from all other combinations of time, pitch and amplitude such that I not only recognise a collection of sounds made, say, in a concert hall from before I was born to be “music” (despite having never heard the original live event), but find it to be wholly analogous to the experience of listening to that same work when performed live without the need for any intermediary mechanism save my ear/brain one, and vice-versa.

Therefore, it’s my perception that defines not only what is and is not music, but is also defining what is and is not musical when I listen to the live event captured and transformed from acoustical waveforms to electricity to zeros and ones to electricity and back to acoustical waveforms again. That is, the two events - the live one and the recorded one played back - are related in that they are both the event experienced, one in real time, and one in non-linear time relative to a series of rotations or samples per second, but are not and never can be the same event.

So given the number of non-linear intermediary mechanisms that are completely essential for pre-recorded music playback to be achievable - if only at a most basic and, perhaps, low-fi level - I personally never conceive of what I hear at home to be directly comparable with what I hear live, no matter how “linear” the gear used may claim to be, especially given the ear/brain mechanism is in-and-of-itself non-linear and we can only ever perceive, and never move beyond perception relative to time.

Do I know when listening at home that I’m subject to an inter-dependent and sometimes extremely complex electro-acoustic and/or electro-mechanical chain of an event that no longer exists in real time? Almost always, yes.

Does that prevent me from experiencing similar, if not the same type of emotional, intellectual and visceral engagement I have in the presence of the live event despite the fact that same event has been subjugated to the inter-dependent and sometimes extremely complex electro-acoustic and/or electro-mechanical chain and is not and never can be the original event? Not at all. That I can and regularly do experience similar if not the same type of emotional, intellectual and visceral engagement from prerecorded music is again, testament to the brain’s ability to confer meaning to dissimilar events, in the same way we cry at the death of an actor during a movie, despite the acknowledged artifice of the event. What is art if not an attempt to provoke response in the subject?

But I never consider those two events are the same thing - they never are, nor ever can be, and I very seldom if ever conflate the two events. It’s simply that I allow myself to engage in such a way as to experience the same types of emotional, intellectual and visceral engagement, irrespective of whether I am listening to the music live, or via a collection of intermediary devices at home. (3) And no, multi-channel confers no benefit to me in the ability to enter into the aforementioned state, though I accept it may do for others.

Best,

853guy


(1) Though I know it’s obvious, perhaps it’s worth stating no mic/mic-pre combo is the equivalent of the ear/brain mechanism. All mics will have a polar pattern (in some cases able to be modified) that will vary between hyper-cardioid, cardioid, figure-of-eight and omni-directional (or some further variation), able to be arranged in multiple (stereo and multi-channel) configurations. The selection of polar pattern alone will massively influence the amount of direct-to-reflected sound captured at the location of the mic’s diaphragm, and often with much less sensitivity than the ear/brain mechanism is capable of (the amount of gain each mic requires also influencing the way in which it captures sound). What’s more, the mic’s frequency response relative to polar response can also vary by up to 5 to 15 dB (even in mics considered “flat”), as well as varying response relative to proximity meaning all frequencies can never be captured equivalently. That the choice of polar pattern will inherently be a decision made by the producer/engineer relative to preference is again, probably obvious, but can’t be overlooked when discussing ambience retrieval.

(2) Forgive me for the use of the phrase “non-linear time” but given the speed the lacquer, tape or digital sample rate are always operating at is relative to a measure of accuracy per parts per X at sea level and all aspects of both the recording and playback mechanism are wholly dependent on time, it can be said all audio systems are (non-linear) time-variant. While tape and vinyl both suffer from wow-and-flutter, itself influenced by other variables not limited to tape stretch and stylus drag perhaps it’s worth asking how “accurate” can digital be in the time domain? The Antelope 10M atomic clock is accurate to 0.03 parts per billion, the equivalent of a deviation of one second per 1000 years. However, that’s still less accurate than the aluminium quantum logic clock used in the NIST time dilation experiment that’s accurate to less than one second per 3.7 billion years. Or in other words, the Antelope is 3.7 million times less accurate than the NIST clock. Would implementation of clocks of the sort of accuracy used in the NIST experiment be audibly superior in stated-preference tests when applied to the audio chain? I have no idea, but digital, no matter its accuracy is never not time-variant.

(3) I really tried to have this make sense. It contains words I have difficulty spelling, and concepts I have even more difficulty articulating, let alone fully understanding. That this post may be way off base and laughably problematic should be of no surprise to anyone, least of all those whose grasp of time-variant and time-invariant systems dwarfs my own.
 
Last edited:

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
8,802
4,550
1,213
Greater Boston
It seems as though "less is more". As to why that is, I'm not sure. I suspect that that it might be that in the case of missing ambient sources, our brain can fill in the details in a case of relative omission, which seems better tolerated than a case where the brain has to reject spurious additive information in most of the surround/MC set-ups I have heard.

Flaws of omission are always less problematic than flaws of commission. Classic case in point: it is much easier to overlook some lacking extension in the bass than to listen through even just slightly boomy bass.
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,601
11,693
4,410
Many years agohen I lived in LA, I invited someone from the music industry over to hear the big rig, which consisted of some CLS stats, ARC monobloc tube amps with VMPS subs and an all vinyl front end. He listened for a while and turned to me and said, "very nice, but its just not realistic because there is no surround sound". Naturally, I was deflated, but it lit the fire to explore surround/MC which I have always done when the opportunity arose to listen to SOA manifestations of this technology. Over the years, each and every time I've heard a formidable surround/MC system, I keep coming away with the same thought. Maybe in theory it should sound better, but it simply does not. It's just not real in a compelling way. For all its limitations, it seems that a good 2 CH rig always wins the day. It seems as though "less is more". As to why that is, I'm not sure. I suspect that that it might be that in the case of missing ambient sources, our brain can fill in the details in a case of relative omission, which seems better tolerated than a case where the brain has to reject spurious additive information in most of the surround/MC set-ups I have heard.

+1.

what's missing with multi-channel is hard to put your finger on when you are only sampling it here and there and don't live with both daily. as you say; the MCH never engaged you like the 2 channel.

in my case i had a serious multi-channel system in a room designed for it, and a serious 2 channel system also. i had over 1000 multi-channel SACD's and listened to them regularly. i had a huge commitment to multi-channel, and was a disciple of it. it was in my system for 18 months.

but i noticed one thing; over time i listened less and less to multi-channel until one day i realized i was avoiding it. then i started to investigate seriously how it compared. and then it was gone and i moved on. the complication and investment for MCH ceased to earn it's keep.

what i had found was that the 2 channel analog simply had much more musical depth and nuance. and even when the multichannel mix was close to right and natural, it still fell short of the total musical view, it was not totally a vinyl-digital thing as many times the 2 channel digital was better straight up. again; even when the MCH mix was right.

my belief is that our brain likes certain aspects of the music to be completely coherent , and it's likely not a conscious thing....our perceptions are not always easily understood. maybe it relates to the magic of listening to mono which connects with our senses even better than stereo does sometimes. maybe someday they will break the code of psychoacoustics and find the way to make MCH fully satisfying.
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,647
13,677
2,710
London
The thing is you two have the best rooms around.

The average 2-ch room is usually lesser than the average MCH IMO. That is because 2-ch rooms are messed up in room-speaker match, so you either have a small speaker that does not do scale and bass, or you have a speaker to big for your room. MCH guys have treatment and DRC as part of the parcel. The average 2-ch room has loads of bass and driver mismatch issues, while MCH rooms have them sorted out as part of the implementation. Same with scale and stage. It will be difficult to get appropriate soundstage and scale in an average 2-ch room. Then the main advantage a 2-ch room has is on tone - as not only vinyl but even with digital the quality of preamp and digital is superior with 2-ch
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,684
10,948
3,515
USA
The thing is you two have the best rooms around.

The average 2-ch room is usually lesser than the average MCH IMO. That is because 2-ch rooms are messed up in room-speaker match, so you either have a small speaker that does not do scale and bass, or you have a speaker to big for your room. MCH guys have treatment and DRC as part of the parcel. The average 2-ch room has loads of bass and driver mismatch issues, while MCH rooms have them sorted out as part of the implementation. Same with scale and stage. It will be difficult to get appropriate soundstage and scale in an average 2-ch room. Then the main advantage a 2-ch room has is on tone - as not only vinyl but even with digital the quality of preamp and digital is superior with 2-ch

Ked, I guess it depends on what you mean by "average 2-ch room". Your descriptions of room issues seems to me to be too general. I know of two specific 2 ch rooms where the room/speaker match is extremely good. The rooms themselves may be more typical, but they have been set up nicely to get the most out of them. They are not dedicated and designed rooms for audio or "the best rooms around". However, music in these rooms/systems is very convincing and can fill the space completely with the right recording. The sense of presence, sound staging and imaging seems very natural and life-like. These two systems/rooms simply do not relate to your statement: "The average 2-ch room has loads of bass and driver mismatch issues."

Do you mean to imply that the WBF 2-ch rooms are average or that the WBF membership's collective experience of 2-ch sound is from hearing "average" rooms? That's the way I read your post.

I did once hear an outstanding multi channel demonstration at RMAF 2010 or 2012. It was in a very large ball room on the main floor run by Cardas Audio. He had his 20 or so special digital four-channel recordings. He played one of male choral singers in a stone church. The system was four Sony speakers each driven by a Pass X series mono amp. The center speaker was there for visual effect, but it was not connected. I sat in the middle of this huge room and heard the most convincing reproduction of singers in a huge stone hall that I've ever heard. What I remember was the spacial effect and portrayal of a huge room acoustic. The scale seemed the same as the roughly 40 X 50 X 20 room in which I sat. The ambiance of the recording venue and layering of the male voices, was uncanny. The next couple of recordings he played were not as convincing.
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,684
10,948
3,515
USA
Best Piano concerto I heard was in the second row...best Jazz concerts were when i sat right next to the band.

I too really enjoy a close up perspective and particularly like chamber settings up close. The sheer energy of a violin, cello or piano up close in a good room is astonishing. The last few live jazz concerts I have attended have been ruined by very poor amplification and mixing. A real shame. Or the singer's voice or trumpet coming out of a monitor on the ceiling. I'll take a cello/piano sonata or string quartet in a large living room every time.
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,684
10,948
3,515
USA
Many 2-channel systems do not properly energize the room. As a result, the soundstage is experienced as an image that you "look at", something that is not immersive but rather, somewhat detached in front of you -- something "happening over there", rather than something that fully reaches and involves you. I suspect that primarily in those cases multi-channel will be experienced as a large step forward. Yet once your 2-channel system, aided by proper component selection, speaker/listening position set-up, and possibly room treatment, provides a fully immersive experience where the instruments are still located with their proper size within a spatially deep soundstage, yet their sound robustly propagates forward towards you and energizes the entire room -- as live sound often energizes the venue -- , then I assume multi-channel will less likely be seen as providing a substantial additive advantage.

And in terms of tone and timbral resolution, fully optimized 2-channel reproduction will not be easy to beat by multi-channel.

Excellent post.
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,647
13,677
2,710
London
I am saying audiophiles in general. Many have room restrictions, and many end up with speakers too big for the room. The best 2 ch I have heard is always superb, but then I find a steep drop and it becomes a gear hobby. Which is fine, that's why people stay in 2 ch, loads of fun. As you know I don't find many cones realistic anyway unless superbly set up. On the other hand when they are in MCH, even a Wilson duetta MCH in a 15 x 15 room was extremely enjoyable.
 
Last edited:

Kal Rubinson

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2010
2,362
706
1,700
NYC
www.stereophile.com
I do not see that it is possible to recreate the original directionality of the ambiance with a few speakers. Therefore, I would stick with using the terminology of "simulation" of the original ambiance.

Well, there are shadings here. The directionality of the ambiance in stereo playback is clearly spurious but often enjoyable. Multichannel can recreate the original directionality although, with only 5 or 7 channels, it can do so only imperfectly. Still, it is audibly superior to what stereo can provide.
 

Fitzcaraldo215

New Member
Nov 3, 2014
394
2
0
I do not see that it is possible to recreate the original directionality of the ambiance with a few speakers. Therefore, I would stick with using the terminology of "simulation" of the original ambiance.
Multichannel 5.1, of course, can and does use phantom imaging between 5 or more speakers, exactly as stereo does between 2. But, yes, phantom imaging is not quite the equal of what would be possible with even more discrete intervening speaker channels. So, by your terminology it is all "simulation". That is stereo, 5.1, 7.1, 32-channel Auro 3D, etc. as long as we are using discrete speaker channels to try to recreate a continuous sound field.

But, the pragmatic reality is that the center channel in 5.1 adds considerable sonic value in my experience by eliminating some of the reliance on stereo's phantom imaging to fill in the all important center of the soundstage. Everybody should hear how much better 1950's 3-channel Mercuries and RCAs sound in 3.0 vs. 2.0.
 

Kal Rubinson

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2010
2,362
706
1,700
NYC
www.stereophile.com
But, the pragmatic reality is that the center channel in 5.1 adds considerable sonic value in my experience by eliminating some of the reliance on stereo's phantom imaging to fill in the all important center of the soundstage. Everybody should hear how much better 1950's 3-channel Mercuries and RCAs sound in 3.0 vs. 2.0.
I agree (of course) but, also, the relocation of center/mono information to the center and their concomitant removal from the L/R channels allows them to deliver a wider soundstage.

I use the Reiner/CSO Scheherazade in demos because most audiophiles know it. After I play it in stereo, I ask listeners what they expect to hear in the 3-channel playback (on the same system) and they predict (and get) better central soundstaging. After the demo, most say that they were surprised and impressed with the enhanced width.
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing