A $42,000 transport.

asiufy · Jun 24, 2017

beaur said:
Those of us (well me!) who lack a dedicated room for our audio toys have to share the entertainment space with the entire family. In my situation, I use a Mac Mini with an attached Thunderbolt array to store all of my music and my other iTunes library for movies etc. I know of no current product (that I can afford) that would allow me to remove the computer entirely from the equation and serve up both music and video to the house as the Mini currently does. Innuous comes pretty close but speaking with them in Munich, I would have still needed to leave the Mini in the system.

Sure I can kludge a few products together to get what I need but it's not going to sound much better than what I currently have and it will most likely be a lot harder to use. Between Roon for music and AppleTV for everything else things work pretty seamlessly and have been bulletproof in that in 3 years i have had one drive replacement and no major computer glitches for a system that is on 24/7.

Verdict for now is that an audio server just isn't worth it right now, and the Mac will stay in the system for now.

Beau

Beau,

In which way the Innuos wouldn't work for you? I've picked up the line, and I'm *really* impressed by it. Sound quality, build quality, ease of use, features, it's all there!
They have specific models for movie serving, which I haven't explored yet, but I will, since there's a lot of demand for that. So I'm curious about how it wouldn't work for you...

Thanks

Alex

microstrip · Jun 24, 2017

asiufy said:
It's funny how everything in this hobby ends up as a competition. This x That.

Why can't people accept streaming *ALONG* with their physical media (vinyl or CD)? Just the convenience of it would make me an adopter.

If it's really music we're really going after, one would think the more/easier the better, no?

All I know is that, "what's best" aside, I can't live without streaming anymore. Yet I do like to sit down with a proper record and scan proper liner notes. There's a time and place for everything.

cheers,
alex

Alex,

IMHO it is not a competition, just a common and usual thread in WBF, discussing an interesting subject.

The discussion was not centered in convenience, but in sound quality performance of redbook and SACD - the media used by this particular transport. And, as far as I have read, no one has reported until now that he changed from a similar high quality transport to a file server because of sound quality.

The distressing indirect part of the thread is that it exposes how limited is our knowledge about digital performance - sound quality from digital differs a lot, but we do not know with depth and certainty why.

spiritofmusic · Jun 24, 2017

For what it's worth, in a totally unscientific and probably zero worth conclusion, but based on in depth listening intently to well optimised SGM in one system which I consider the best server playback, and my cdp in mine which I consider the best silver disc playback
The comparison I would draw is the SGM is best by far at analogue-like flow, super low noise like the best analog playback, indeed Blue58 has the most analogue-like digital playback I've heard by far
It's lack of noise and sonic thumbprint is spooky, and just seems uncannily reminiscent of what the best lp playback can offer
Fantastic
My cdp on the other hand has a lot more archetypes in the sound that remind me it's digital, incl a worse noise flr, certainly more intrusive than the SGM, and this keeps the sound in my system more earthbound and less transparent
Where my cdp has the edge, and it's a pretty thick edge, is the sense of verve and momentum which means music here is more propulsive and red blooded
Now as I say, this is in no way a fair comparison, different gear, different room, but is my honest summing up having heard the SGM in depth over a dozen times, and of course my cdp all the time
Push come to shove? I'd easily choose the SGM over my Eera, that's quite saying something
My only reticence is the "unlearning" I'd have to do, and this potential lack of drive that thinking about the two highlights
Interestingly JFrech pretty much concludes this in his Vivaldi experience, files being more detailed and smooth, but silver discs sounding more visceral
Certainly food for thought with the momentum with the server, but some really critical areas silver discs still potentially winning out in

microstrip · Jun 24, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
(...) To be honest, the SGM is the first device to make me consider ditching cd (...)

Do you have significant experience with it?

spiritofmusic · Jun 24, 2017

As I've said Micro, over a dozen in depth auditions since Blue58 bought his unit after Munich roll out last year
I absolutely love it to bits

PeterA · Jun 24, 2017

microstrip said:
Alex,

IMHO it is not a competition, just a common and usual thread in WBF, discussing an interesting subject.

The discussion was not centered in convenience, but in sound quality performance of redbook and SACD - the media used by this particular transport. And, as far as I have read, no one has reported until now that he changed from a similar high quality transport to a file server because of sound quality.

The distressing indirect part of the thread is that it exposes how limited is our knowledge about digital performance - sound quality from digital differs a lot, but we do not know with depth and certainty why.

Yes, it does expose how limited our knowledge about digital performance is, and I find it particularly interesting that so few people seem to have direct experience with the various alternatives and are willing to discuss what they have heard about differences. I really appreciate MikeL's comments from his experience and how much may depend on genre of music and availability. I had not really considered that before, though Al M often mentions that CDs "are where all the music is". It seems that people do have preferences, and in a few particular cases (ack, Al M.) it is based on their perceptions of sound quality for either technical reasons, or actual listening. For others it seems to come down to interface, convenience, their existing collections, price; basically things other than differences in sound quality.

asiufy · Jun 24, 2017

spiritofmusic,

See, your thought process is extreme. It can either be CD via a dedicated player, or streaming via a dedicated monster setup. As you said it yourself, you're "afraid" of "the cloud", so why jump head first?
Dip your toes in first, see if you dig it. I don't know if your Eera has digital in, in which case an Auralic Aries, an Innuos Zen Mini will get you going. If it doesn't, go for an Auralic Altair.
It'll give you the Roon interface so you can start fiddling with it.
Two things can happen: you can be disgusted at the whole thing, in which case you sell it and avoid a potentially much larger ruinous purchase, or you can enjoy the experience so much, and will be longing for better SQ, in which case, the SGM+DAC will be waiting for you.
That said, even though we like the same music (prog and 70s in general), your gear is the complete opposite of what I like, so I'm kinda nervous to be recommending gear to you

cheers,
alex

microstrip · Jun 24, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
As I've said Micro, over a dozen in depth auditions since Blue58 bought his unit after Munich roll out last year
I absolutely love it to bits

Thanks - as far as I remember using a T&A DAC 8 DSD. Am I correct? Any experience with other systems?

BTW, I really liked Roon - it is a great interface for a server. Extremely fast learning phase. My concern in this thread in just sound quality.

spiritofmusic · Jun 24, 2017

Alex, yes extreme not so helpful LOL
I only mention SGM because it truly is the only server I have in depth familiarity with, and "talks" to me with it's spookily analog-like near zero noise floor
Other streamers I've heard leave me a tad frustrated, and cheaper streaming options with what I highlight as "digital tv sound" are a total turn off
Unfortunately Eera has no digital out, so any cheaper option would have to be streamer and dac, or all in one network option
But as it goes, take it from me, to hear old chestnuts like ELP Tarkus, Yes Fragile, Rush 2112 that failed miserably in the 80s on gear like the Meridian 207Pro cdp sound absolutely fresh and vibrant on the SGM/T&A Dac8/Sablon Reserva unpowered USB, is a testament to how truly mould breaking I find the unit to be as a died in the wool disc spinning dinosaur

XV-1 · Jun 24, 2017

microstrip said:
Economics law of high-end:

The equipment WE buy is surely reasonably priced, the equipment OTHERS buy is probably not reasonably priced, independently of being analog or digital.

LOL. Nothing I buy is what I call reasonably priced. I may try to convince myself it is, but its not.

But compared to higher priced items it is cheaper - nothing more, nothing less. First world problems indeed

asiufy · Jun 24, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
Alex, yes extreme not so helpful LOL
I only mention SGM because it truly is the only server I have in depth familiarity with, and "talks" to me with it's spookily analog-like near zero noise floor
Other streamers I've heard leave me a tad frustrated, and cheaper streaming options with what I highlight as "digital tv sound" are a total turn off
Unfortunately Eera has no digital out, so any cheaper option would have to be streamer and dac, or all in one network option
But as it goes, take it from me, to hear old chestnuts like ELP Tarkus, Yes Fragile, Rush 2112 that failed miserably in the 80s on gear like the Meridian 207Pro cdp sound absolutely fresh and vibrant on the SGM/T&A Dac8/Sablon Reserva unpowered USB, is a testament to how truly mould breaking I find the unit to be as a died in the wool disc spinning dinosaur ?

Digital has come a long way. You've listed some of my favorite albums of all time, so I know them well. I don't know that particular Meridian, but it doesn't strike me as cutting edge stuff... A $3000 Aqua La Voce + a $1200 Innuos sounds incredibly good for the cost, and will do justice to all those recordings, specially the few that are being touched up by Steven Wilson (ELP and Yes).

cheers,
alex

MadFloyd · Jun 24, 2017

astrostar59 said:
Servers and optimised PCs vary to an incredible degree as unless well optimised send tons of hash and noise down USB. Some transports output via i2S direct to the DAC chip so may well surpass even the best servers. My tests have proved to me anyway, a nicely optimised server sans SMPS and outputting via ethernet can beat 90% of transports IMO. And that server can be done for 2-3k max. Personally I moved on from CDPs years back and won't go back. Quite possibly an Audio Note CD5 may fit better with my own DAC, but I am not convinced the gains are worth the cost. Moving away from USB made such a big difference, I firmly believe I am in the top tier CDP territory anyway. And don't discount the recent advances in SQ with A+, Roon or HQP.

+1

There is no benefit to an SGM.

Mike Lavigne · Jun 24, 2017

astrostar59 said:
Servers and optimised PCs vary to an incredible degree as unless well optimised send tons of hash and noise down USB. Some transports output via i2S direct to the DAC chip so may well surpass even the best servers. My tests have proved to me anyway, a nicely optimised server sans SMPS and outputting via ethernet can beat 90% of transports IMO. And that server can be done for 2-3k max. Personally I moved on from CDPs years back and won't go back. Quite possibly an Audio Note CD5 may fit better with my own DAC, but I am not convinced the gains are worth the cost. Moving away from USB made such a big difference, I firmly believe I am in the top tier CDP territory anyway. And don't discount the recent advances in SQ with A+, Roon or HQP.

MadFloyd said:
+1

There is no benefit to an SGM.

curious comments.

Astro makes a number of claims. just above I describe exactly the scenario that Astro refutes; where the Aqua La Diva using proprietary i2S interface into the Aqua Formula gets beat by the SGM. while the transport -> i2S -> dac may do this or that, in my case it did not. maybe Astro had a specific where it did. I'd like to hear about it, if it's more than a supposition. or maybe his repeated use of the word 'optimized' does refer to the SGM. in which case I assume Ian ignored that and then doubled down to condemn the SGM to irrelevancy.

and your mother wears boondockers! I can be snotty too.

so there!!

I think we are ways from any consensus ultimate truth about transports verses Ethernet verses USB. we all have a right to our opinions.

Al M. · Jun 24, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
I think it's important to also view the whole transport question in terms of the actual musical approach of the user.

if one is into legacy CD's and mostly rock-pop-jazz then silver discs make complete sense as the main focus since that is where both the older music and current offerings are.

OTOH if one is seriously into classical, now the whole high resolution issue starts to tip the scales dramatically in favor of files and optimization for those files.

once a classical listener tastes what 88/24, 96/24, 176/24 and 192/24 can do for classical, and then they listen to 352/384-24/32 dxd files become the better choice. and most of this music is now mastered in these higher resolutions.

Sorry to strongly disagree, Mike. If you look for a certain classical piece where it doesn't matter that much who the performer is, yes, perhaps high-res has something to offer -- and certainly, many of the performances will be really good. But when you look for specific performances, and in particular newer ones, Redbook CD still rules. It also rules on the lesser known works -- the major 'war horses' have a better chance of being represented in high-res. As I like to say about CD, "that's where all the music is".

Also, modern classical avantgarde, which is incredibly important to me, is almost strictly Redbook CD only. As I see it, 16/44.1 still rules in the grand scheme of things.

Mike Lavigne · Jun 25, 2017

Al M. said:
Sorry to strongly disagree, Mike. If you look for a certain classical piece where it doesn't matter that much who the performer is, yes, perhaps high-res has something to offer -- and certainly, many of the performances will be really good. But when you look for specific performances, and in particular newer ones, Redbook CD still rules. It also rules on the lesser known works -- the major 'war horses' have a better chance of being represented in high-res. As I like to say about CD, "that's where all the music is".

Also, modern classical avantgarde, which is incredibly important to me, is almost strictly Redbook CD only. As I see it, 16/44.1 still rules in the grand scheme of things.

Al,

I respect your perspective, but I wonder 2 things.

1-have you investigated higher rez classical yourself to know what it offers? listened to it?

2-and do you realize that almost nothing is originally recorded to redbook these days; they need more headroom in the recording to allow for mixing. so even if it's only offered to you in redbook at this time, likely higher rez offerings will be available at some point, or even are now if you look.

and my main point was that musical genre does matter as far as digital media choices; as you have made clear. I did not mean to question your approach as invalid. avant-garde classical digital is a sub category I have no feel for or even previously thought of as a category. but I do see it as such now.

sbo6 · Jun 25, 2017

Servers and optimised PCs vary to an incredible degree as unless well optimised send tons of hash and noise down USB. Some transports output via i2S direct to the DAC chip so may well surpass even the best servers. My tests have proved to me anyway, a nicely optimised server sans SMPS and outputting via ethernet can beat 90% of transports IMO. And that server can be done for 2-3k max. Personally I moved on from CDPs years back and won't go back. Quite possibly an Audio Note CD5 may fit better with my own DAC, but I am not convinced the gains are worth the cost. Moving away from USB made such a big difference, I firmly believe I am in the top tier CDP territory anyway. And don't discount the recent advances in SQ with A+, Roon or HQP.

IME with my Esoteric K-03 (includes the Esoteric VRDS-NEO transport) after upgrading to a LPSU + femto USB card my music PC beat the transport. However, and, not sure how exactly this data point fits in - with the Aqua Formula (clearly beating the Esoteric files or discs) files on the Music PC via USB out vs. a cheapo Sony AIO player via SPDIF out are very close in sound quality with CDs and Blu Ray. Go figure...

Al M. · Jun 25, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
Al,

I respect your perspective, but I wonder 2 things.

1-have you investigated higher rez classical yourself to know what it offers? listened to it?

Mike,

I listened to small samples of it, but I wasn't impressed. Perhaps the circumstances at the time were not optimal. I did notice on those occasions that recording/mastering quality itself trumps format, by a large margin. This of course does not take away that the same recording may sound better in high-res, all other things being equal.

2-and do you realize that almost nothing is originally recorded to redbook these days; they need more headroom in the recording to allow for mixing.

Yes, this is a very good thing. Digital engineers did learn over the years...

so even if it's only offered to you in redbook at this time, likely higher rez offerings will be available at some point, or even are now if you look.

That is the problem: we have had promises over and over again that the record companies will finally "open their vaults" and make everything available in high-res. It never happened. Why? As Mike Moffat of Theta Digital fame points out somewhere (I'd have to find the link), as much as we'd like it, consumer audio is NOT technology driven. It is economics driven.

and my main point was that musical genre does matter as far as digital media choices; as you have made clear. I did not mean to question your approach as invalid.

Oh don't worry. With my reasoning I did not mean to question your approach as invalid either.

avant-garde classical digital is a sub category I have no feel for or even previously thought of as a category. but I do see it as such now.

This sub category is of course another example that audio is economics driven. When there is not as great demand (as in this case, compared to mainstream classical), high-res is not (or hardly) offered.

Interestingly, the recording quality itself of avant-garde classical is often particularly high; in part this may be due to the fact that mostly the labels are small and recording/mastering a labor of love.

BMCG · Jun 25, 2017

back to the OP's query....namely as to whether any digital disc spinner merits a $42k sticker....

in a world where more than a few acrylic spinners (aka turntables)...have crested the $100k line....

why is the Vivaldi Transport incongruous or absurd as some have suggested?

sure its a struggle to rationalise....but as a digitalphile....the Clearaudio Statement ($200k or so) is rather more incomprehensible...

and yes I am skeptical that the Transport can better my server...but i look forward to the audition.

SCAudiophile · Jun 25, 2017

KeithR said:
5k? The Esoteric P-03 costs 13k with the same transport (which I'm sure is jacked up pricing-wise vs. true Japanese price, but that's a different story). I'm still confused at 3.5x for the same transport.

Correct....P-03 in its time was just over $14K (rounded), the P-03U (which I owned with a D-03) weighed in around $17K due to it's video and DVD-A capabilities.

In more recent times, the P-02 transport (and D-02 DAC) were $22-23K each for a time and finished around $20K when Japan adjusted prices; P-02X and D-02X are now $20K if memory serves.

Esoteric's newest uber 1-box solution, the "GRANDIOSO K1", reputed to be cleaning the clock of everything out there, including the K-01X by a sizable margin, according to actual hobbyists who have bought it, weighs in at $27K, not anywhere near $35K.*

*Caveat: I do have professed Esoteric bias however in this case, I've talked to at least 4 new K1 owners, some of whom have come from other Esoteric solutions, but most have left their DCS
and other gear and jumped on this new 1-box solution). I have no direct experience with the K1 so am only reporting the

This, with the absolute latest and greatest VRDS-NEO VMK-3.5-20S (the exact model in their GRANDIOSO P1 transport from the 4-box stack)...don't believe any other vendor can OEM
this particular transport...

I respect DCS' accomplishments and sound over the years and currently but am also having trouble adding up the feature list, etc..even with vendor R&D to market multiplier to arrive
at a $42K price tag...

microstrip · Jun 25, 2017

microstrip said:
Economics law of high-end:

The equipment WE buy is surely reasonably priced, the equipment OTHERS buy is probably not reasonably priced, independently of being analog or digital.

Behavior law of high-end:

Some people get confused and troubled with OTHER people choices, independently of being analog or digital.

A $42,000 transport.

Industry Expert/VIP Donor

VIP/Donor

Well-Known Member

VIP/Donor

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Industry Expert/VIP Donor

VIP/Donor

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Industry Expert/VIP Donor

Member Sponsor

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member

VIP/Donor

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member

VIP/Donor

VIP/Donor

VIP/Donor

Well-Known Member

VIP/Donor

Similar threads