To change my mind I would need to build an ABX (or AX) box for the power cord where it "makes before breaks" so that I can instantly switch between the two cables without the unit power cycling. I would then run a dozen or so blind tests. If I get essentially perfect identification, I will change my mind. I will have to do this one of these days .
Amir, if you are serious about conducting a valid test procedure, I would be happy to help by supplying a test rig.
The rig would have the ability to compare two different cables without removing power to the system or component under test.
Call or email privately and we can discuss what is involved.
I don't think that is a good analogy because the number of people who think earth is flat is very small. Lay people and scientists are also all one one side of that equation.
With respect to cables that is not so (power or otherwise). Now the entire weight of scientists is against the notion that they make such differences. What's more, there are large number of audiophiles that believe the same.
On the other hand there are larger number of audiophiles who think cables do make a difference.
In that regard we are being asked whether there were tests of our understanding that would get us to agree with the other large group of people. I think it is a fair question.
Let me ask you this. Let's say I secretly asked your loved one to switch out your cable for another in a way that you could not tell visually and out of a dozen times this was done over period of days, you could not note the difference. When this was revealed to you at the end, would that change your opinion and make you consider switch sides?
as i said in my first post, flat earth reference was an exaggeration. That said, I disagree about scientists not thinking cables make a difference. I have seen the Minnesota Heart Institute fit out their heart monitoring systems with Shunyata power products and cables...that is the only scientific analysis of which i am aware which i trust and has no evident 'angle' either way pro or con since for them this is not even close to being about endorsing some audiophile company.
So for me, the science in this article is the only one i am aware of and happy to trust. They did the measurements and could measure the improvement on their scopes quite specifically due to the installation of Shunyata. not a listening test, or a blind test or a double blind test or any other such thing.
As for the whole blind test thing, i have done this enough times in my own system by accident and otherwise to know that it has made a difference each time. I have forgotten to switch things back, had grounding cables come unplugged by accident, or someone kicked a component with the vacuum cleaner...all of which were things i discovered because i was frustrated by the system sound.
That said, i CAN confirm that if i took them all out, and the sound was the same, i would be happy to sell them for money and keep it.
So a test using BS1116 guidelines showing negative outcome between power cords would make you change your mind about them and think they don't make a difference?
If the test would be able to show positive identifications of the typical small differences in sound quality of high-end components in my listening room, yes.
There is a misunderstanding here that both you and Amir are making. You're talking about changing an opinion. But in fact its the experience (not opinion) of cable difference believers which is what makes them believers. Experience leads to opinion/belief. To change their beliefs you'd need to be changing their experience - in other words making them hear no difference.
There is a misunderstanding here that both you and Amir are making. You're talking about changing an opinion. But in fact its the experience (not opinion) of cable difference believers which is what makes them believers. Experience leads to opinion/belief. To change their beliefs you'd need to be changing their experience - in other words making them hear no difference.
agree...i had never thought about paying money for a third party cable until i could not figure out why a mid-fi system i'd heard sounded so much better than it had any right to. I discovered the entire system had been hooked up to a purist audio dominus power cable. As soon as we took it out, it went back to being mid-fi again. i learned something that day...not saying it works on every system. But it worked on that system that day when i was not even looking for or even aware of third party power cables.
There is a misunderstanding here that both you and Amir are making. You're talking about changing an opinion. But in fact its the experience (not opinion) of cable difference believers which is what makes them believers. Experience leads to opinion/belief. To change their beliefs you'd need to be changing their experience - in other words making them hear no difference.
I deliberately chose not to use the word "belief" because I think it immediately puts people in opposing camps. It implies at a dogmatism on both sides, that I'm hoping to avoid.
If it makes it easier though I'm happy to reword the question something like this:
"Each individual's experience has led them to believe that power cables either do or do not make a difference. Is there anything that you could imagine experiencing that would lead you to change your own belief "
I deliberately chose not to use the word "belief" because I think it immediately puts people in opposing camps. It implies at a dogmatism on both sides, that I'm hoping to avoid.
If it makes it easier though I'm happy to reword the question something like this:
"Each individual's experience has led them to believe that power cables either do or do not make a difference. Is there anything that you could imagine experiencing that would lead you to change your own belief "
This is where bias becomes a barrier. Those that have invested in high end PC's purchased them because they heard a positive difference in their systems and your asking them to nullify that decision. It is true that many upgrade their PC's,but they can justify that a lot easier then a outright enlightened realization that their judgement was faulty.
Now I on the other hand I could say that I have changed my mind through my noise experiments. But I have no reason to change out my PC's to explore that distinct possibility. I doubt you will find anybody that will answer your question.
This is where bias becomes a barrier. Those that have invested in high end PC's purchased them because they heard a positive difference in their systems and your asking them to nullify that decision. It is true that many upgrade their PC's,but they can justify that a lot easier then a outright enlightened realization that their judgement was faulty.
Now I on the other hand I could say that I have changed my mind through my noise experiments. But I have no reason to change out my PC's to explore that distinct possibility. I doubt you will find anybody that will answer your question.
To be clear, I'm not asking anyone to change their opinion
edit: I am however, asking people on both sides to imagine a situation in which they would change their mind.
We all base our opinions on evidence, I'm challenging people to be open minded enough to imagine what evidence would change their views
Your asking that have they had a experience that has led them to change their opinion that PC's do make a difference.
If the question was would you change or upgrade your present PC's because of any scientific or subjective reason,I would answer positively not.
Your asking that have they had a experience that has led them to change their opinion that PC's do make a difference.
If the question was would you change or upgrade your present PC's because of any scientific or subjective reason,I would answer positively not.
I don't think that this hobby has evolved to have had the necessary experience yet. Sure there might be objective people that hold that view,but a subjective group no. In other words they can't answer.
I don't think that this hobby has evolved to have had the necessary experience yet. Sure there might be objective people that hold that view,but a subjective group no. In other words they can't answer.
To be clear, I'm not asking anyone to change their opinion
edit: I am however, asking people on both sides to imagine a situation in which they would change their mind.
We all base our opinions on evidence, I'm challenging people to be open minded enough to imagine what evidence would change their views
I don't have any personal power cable epiphanies to relate...
I don't have any noticed nor detected anomalous behaviors to eradicate...
Being of the opinion that sufficient or even excessive gauge is the primary consideration for a use/don't use decision in a power cable...
It would take an interesting set of before/after measurements of meaningful differences - let's say, at the cables, the amplifier output, and at the listening position, you know, something besides "I plugged it in and (let me catch my breath here) OMFG!" before my own curiosity would even be aroused beyond what it is now, which is not much.
It was about 15 years ago that I first performed A/B comparisons of power cords in my system. When I found a PC that sounded better than what I was currently using I replaced that cord. It was when I first encountered Transparent PC's that the differences were readily audible without having to continuously compare units. I occasionally A/B new competitors and have replaced a couple of my TA cables with lower cost Shunyata, yet in other applications Shunyata fell short. I have drawn a line in the sand and will not pay more than $X no matter how much better they sound and will not even audition them in my set-up
It was about 15 years ago that I first performed A/B comparisons of power cords in my system. When I found a PC that sounded better than what I was currently using I replaced that cord. It was when I first encountered Transparent PC's that the differences were readily audible without having to continuously compare units. I occasionally A/B new competitors and have replaced a couple of my TA cables with lower cost Shunyata, yet in other applications Shunyata fell short. I have drawn a line in the sand and will not pay more than $X no matter how much better they sound and will not even audition them in my set-up
Amir, if you are serious about conducting a valid test procedure, I would be happy to help by supplying a test rig.
The rig would have the ability to compare two different cables without removing power to the system or component under test.
Call or email privately and we can discuss what is involved.
.
