A remarkable Redbook CD afternoon at Goodwin's High End

Ron Resnick

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Thank you Al and Peter for fantastic reviews -- detailed, informative and intimately understandable!

I think the different perspectives from the digital-only listener and the analog-only listener make this thread extremely interesting and valuable.

Please would you tell us what each of you means by "convincing presence of sound"?
 

Al M.

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Dan, let's not put members who share their experiences this way on the witness stand with this type of tone. Otherwise it may discourage them from sharing such in the future. Ask questions but don't get personal this way.

Thanks Amir, but don't worry, I wasn't too bothered by the comment. Goodwin's probably used a DXD standard setting, I'll find out.

And as for Spectral, I could show him that, instead of just complaining like people usually do, I had done some homework.
 

PeterA

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Thank you Al and Peter for fantastic reviews -- detailed, informative and intimately understandable!

I think the different perspectives from the digital-only listener and the analog-only listener make this thread extremely interesting and valuable.

Please would you tell us what each of you means by "convincing presence of sound"?

Thanks Ron. "Presence", as an audio concept, was introduced to me by reading Jim Smith's book, "Get Better Sound". However, only after Jim had come to my house and completed his "RoomPlay" service on my system, did I fully grasp the meaning of the term. To me, it means hearing a recording in one's listening room which is convincing and believable in the sense that it allows the listener to suspend his disbelief to the point where he has the impression that the performer on the recording is actually in the room with him, or given the recording's acoustic, that he is at the venue where and when the recording was made. He is listening to a performance rather than to a recording of the performance.

I describe it in very elevated or lofty terms, which many might describe as hyperbole, but, with due introspection, and based on my own experience, presence in this sense is certainly possible from an audio system. It is rare, but when it exists, it can transform an ordinary hifi listening session into an extremely rewarding and emotional experience. I think of it as the final ingredient necessary for a system to be truly special.

Presence is the combination of excellent sound staging, three dimensional imaging, and a palpable sound. For me, it also means that the sound fills the room and is not perceived as a plane of sound at and behind the speakers that one is "observing". A system which has presence, has the ability to fill the room and surround the listener, just like when listening to live unamplified music. The string quartet, or female with guitar, the chorus, or solo musician is in the room with you, the listener. And it sounds "natural".

I have found that a system has to be at a certain level for this to be possible. It does not need to be expensive, but it does need to be resolving, dynamic and transparent. However, these qualities do not guarantee that it will have presence. I think presence is dependent in large part on a proper listener/speaker/room interaction. If these are not correct, the best components, if not properly set up, will not achieve a sense of presence. This is what I learned from Jim Smith, and it sure is great when you hear it.

I first heard this at a demo at Goodwin's High End with Magico V2 speakers, Spectral electronics, and an SME turntable. I will never forget that demo because I actually imagined that the musicians were there playing for me.

Topically, Al M. and I listened to my system today and heard some excellent music. Perhaps Al will chime in and expand on what I have written.
 
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mauidan

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Dan, let's not put members who share their experiences this way on the witness stand with this type of tone. Otherwise it may discourage them from sharing such in the future. Ask questions but don't get personal this way.

Guess you missed Jim Smith post#12, which Al M couldn't answer in his response #16. because he was clueless about the Rossini's different upsampling and filters option.

As Jim posted these upsampling and filters options "can make the difference between pretty good to OMG."

I wonder if Al M knows what filter he's using on his BADA.
 

Al M.

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Peter, I couldn't have said it better.

As for presence and palpability, we talked about 3D projection of the performer/instrument(s). I would say it's in some way the quality of having the illusion to be able to reach out and grab the performer, either nearby or 'from a distance'. Today. listening to your system, I had once more this illusion to an uncanny degree with the cello on that Dutilleux/Lutoslawski recording with Rostropovich as soloist. Among the most convincing experiences of presence I have ever had.

"I think presence is dependent in large part on a proper listener/speaker/room interaction. If these are not correct, the best components, if not properly set up, will not achieve a sense of presence."

Yes, I think this is important. People tend to put too much emphasis on equipment to achieve this, and too little on getting the room acoustics right and the speaker positioning relative to room and listener.
 

Al M.

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I wonder if Al M knows what filter he's using on his BADA.

Hehe, number 1 of course. I can see you are in a particularly cheerful mood today ;)
 

Al M.

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adyc

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Thank AI and Peter for sharing their experience. Getting praised by a pure analog guy, Rossini is certainly a very special DAC.
 

Ron Resnick

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Thanks Ron. "Presence", as an audio concept, was introduced to me by reading Jim Smith's book, "Get Better Sound". However, only after Jim had come to my house and completed his "RoomPlay" service on my system, did I fully grasp the meaning of the term. To me, it means hearing a recording in one's listening room which is convincing and believable in the sense that it allows the listener to suspend his disbelief to the point where he has the impression that the performer on the recording is actually in the room with him, or given the recording's acoustic, that he is at the venue where and when the recording was made. He is listening to a performance rather than to a recording of the performance.

I describe it in very elevated or lofty terms, which many might describe as hyperbole, but, with due introspection, and based on my own experience, presence in this sense is certainly possible from an audio system. It is rare, but when it exists, it can transform an ordinary hifi listening session into an extremely rewarding and emotional experience. I think of it as the final ingredient necessary for a system to be truly special.

Presence is the combination of excellent sound staging, three dimensional imaging, and a palpable sound. For me, it also means that the sound fills the room and is not perceived as a plane of sound at and behind the speakers that one is "observing". A system which has presence, has the ability to fill the room and surround the listener, just like when listening to live unamplified music. The string quartet, or female with guitar, the chorus, or solo musician is in the room with you, the listener. And it sounds "natural".

. . .

Thank you, Peter. That was beautifully written, and I understand completely.
 

jfrech

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Guess you missed Jim Smith post#12, which Al M couldn't answer in his response #16. because he was clueless about the Rossini's different upsampling and filters option.

As Jim posted these upsampling and filters options "can make the difference between pretty good to OMG."

I wonder if Al M knows what filter he's using on his BADA.

Not sure I get tone and line of questioning here. I agree the filters can make a real diff. But once set to your preference ... I don't tend to change them. So in this case, seems like this dealer had the filters set to where 2 analog guys were pretty impressed. They just enjoyed the music. Isn't that what a demo is supposed to be about?
 
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Al M.

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No sure I get tone and line of questioning here. I agree the filters can make a real diff. But once set to your preference ... I don't tend to change them. So in this case, seems like this dealer had the filters set to where 2 analog guys were pretty impressed. They just enjoyed the music. Isn't that what a demo is supposed to be about?

Thank you, John. I am though, unlike Peter who has an analog-only set-up, someone who at home only listens to digital. Yet lately I had become rather critical of digital after having gathered extensive experience with the great analog in Peter's and Madfloyd's sytems. The dCS Vivaldi initially, and now the dCS Rossini in a more close-up and focused session, have dispelled my doubts about the digital medium as implemented in practice. That digital theory is correct was clear to me for some time, also thanks to great input from technically knowledgeable guys here are WBF.
 

Al M.

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Thank AI and Peter for sharing their experience. Getting praised by a pure analog guy, Rossini is certainly a very special DAC.

Thank you. I should clarify something in my comments, which could be misunderstood by some.

Some people who are less analog-friendly might misconstrue my comments about the dCS Rossini sounding more like great analog as meaning that it successfully has adopted the colorations of analog. If they thought that this is what my comments meant they would be seriously mistaken.

While I agree that lesser analog can sound rather colored, I don't perceive great analog that way. I perceive it as more approaching the sound of live music than most digital -- people who know me well will understand this. So when I say, the dCS Rossini sounds like great analog, I really mean that it sounds more like live music because its sound is free of all the artifacts that have plagued digital so far, and the accuracy and resolution of timbre is much better -- nothing else. And Peter, with whom I have shared several experiences of live music, feels the same way.

As I also said in my opening post:

"The string instruments sounded more wooden, and there was more resolution. It just was a more natural sound from the start."

"The naturalness of sound through the dCS Rossini was really stunning. Importantly, it was not achieved through any smoothing of sound. While the tone of string quartets, due to the lack of artifacts, sounded much more 'well-behaved', in a good way, than I had ever heard before from digital, there was also a lot more of rough 'shredding' of sound through the cornet (a sister of the trumpet) than I had heard before on that great jazz recording. All the natural timbre of instruments simply came through to a much greater extent, and reminded me much more of live music."
 

MadFloyd

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Guess you missed Jim Smith post#12, which Al M couldn't answer in his response #16. because he was clueless about the Rossini's different upsampling and filters option.

As Jim posted these upsampling and filters options "can make the difference between pretty good to OMG."

I wonder if Al M knows what filter he's using on his BADA.

So after a warning from Amir, this guy just continues to insult. I don't know if Al killed his dog or something but can we please just ban mauidan so we can continue to have interesting threads Like this one without someone threadcrapping all over it?
 

Al M.

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Regarding colorations, following up on my previous post:

I also tested the dCS Rossini with a musically outstanding recording (Lester Bower/The 5th Power) on which muted trumpet and alto saxophone sound rather thin, on my system and also on other occasions where I have heard it. The remarkable thing is that, while it still sounded rather thin, though perhaps somewhat less, on the dCS Rossini, it now sounded believable: it appeared to have the sound of real instruments, tuned to sound as thinner (in the case of the alto saxophone this might depend on the type of mouthpiece used, and in the case of the trumpet on the mute used) and/or playing in a somewhat thinner sounding live acoustic, rather than making the impression of being artificially thin. On the other hand, I have also heard that recording on a DAC that thickened up the timbre in comparison. So I interpret the fact that the dCS Rossini manages to make the sound believable while keeping it rather thin, as opposed to thickening it up, as a virtue. It suggests that the DAC is rather free of colorations; in also this context the full timbre reproduced through it on other occasions, as I described in my opening post, appears to play to the same fidelity to the sound of real instruments in a real acoustic.

The DAC simply appears to reproduce to much higher fidelity than other DACs what is actually on the recording, which in all the cases described also happens to sound more like live music.

***

By the way, the timbral detail on the alto saxophone and trumpet on that recording was also much higher than I heard before, the resolution was insanely good.
 

PeterA

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Thank you. I should clarify something in my comments, which could be misunderstood by some.

Some people who are less analog-friendly might misconstrue my comments about the dCS Rossini sounding more like great analog as meaning that it successfully has adopted the colorations of analog. If they thought that this is what my comments meant they would be seriously mistaken.

While I agree that lesser analog can sound rather colored, I don't perceive great analog that way. I perceive it as more approaching the sound of live music than most digital -- people who know me well will understand this. So when I say, the dCS Rossini sounds like great analog, I really mean that it sounds more like live music because its sound is free of all the artifacts that have plagued digital so far, and the accuracy and resolution of timbre is much better -- nothing else. And Peter, with whom I have shared several experiences of live music, feels the same way.

Thank you for this clarification, Al.

It has been a fascinating week. Al has been on vacation and has listened to a lot of music. This began with our trip to Goodwin's to audition the Berkeley Ref and dCS Rossini DACs. He then listened to his system with the Goodwin's experience in mind, while I cleaned some new/old records. I later visited him and heard his Berkeley Alpha DAC. The difference in resolution and naturalness between his system and what we heard at Goodwin's was striking, although Al's system continues to be a standard bearer for Presence, dimensionality, palpability and believable imaging. Truly remarkable. This is partly due to his good equipment but, I think, much more to the room and set up which he has worked very hard to achieve. Yesterday, Al, another friend, and I listened to my system and then Al and I had some tea and discussed all things audio and what this past week of listening has taught us.

Having listened to live music a number of times with Al, it is clear that his reference, like mine, is live, acoustic music, both small scale chamber and also larger orchestral music at the BSO, Vienna and elsewhere. As we have written before, each of us owns either digital or analog, but not both. So we know those sources with all of their characteristics well, and we compare them to our live references. I strongly believe that there is no absolute sound, per se, but a range of sound that we hear when listening to different musicians playing their different instruments in different halls. For Al and I to consider an audio system's reproduction to sound convincing or believable, it must remind us of the sound of an instrument that we have heard live. It will not sound exactly the same, but if successful, the system will reproduce the sound closely enough so that it falls somewhere within the range of our experience of how we have heard it sound somewhere in the past.

We have all read reviews of digital products that sound "analog like". The reviewer usually means this as a compliment, but it can be interpreted by some to mean that it has the same colorations and distortions of analog. That it has a similar "warmth" and the pleasing sound as analog. That it is subjectively preferred to digital, but that it is not accurate. I brought this up with Al yesterday and it got me thinking about how we, as a community of music lovers and audiophiles, misinterpret each other's comments and how we form entrenched camps to emphasize differences and to clarify positions.

The people who give more weight to measurements and to accurately reproducing the original recording generally support their position by pointing out that the recording, flawed as it is, is really all we have to work with in this hobby. The recording is made by an artist, we buy it, and we are left trying to extract and reproduce all of the information as transparently as possible. Fidelity to the recording is the measure of how successful the system is. I understand this view and agree with it to some extent, but it is rooted in objective analysis. I have not compared the measurements between the Berkeley Ref Dac and the Rossini. I'm sure they each measure very well. And they would probably make close to indistinguishable vinyl rips for an analog source. But they sound very different from each other when playing the same recording IF, WE USE OUR MEMORY OF LIVE UNAMPLIFIED MUSIC AS OUR REFERENCE.

Al and I are guided by our experiences of listening to live music. We acknowledge the importance of the recording, but we think that it is not all that we have to work with. We have something else, perhaps equally as important as the recording itself, and that is our MEMORY of what live, music actually sounds like. This is our guide and it influences our decisions and how we make progress in the hobby.

So when one argues that a solid state/digital/active speaker system provides the most accurate copy of the original recording, I think that is fine. Perhaps it does, and I am open to being convinced that that is the case. But, that is not enough. As someone who has listened to a lot of live music, I must also ask "how real does it sound?" Faithfulness to the recording, is not enough for me. I do not see this as an objective/subjective debate. I critique what I hear against my memory of what live music sounds like. A great analog source or a great digital source like the dCS Rossini allows us to more easily believe what we are hearing is an actual performance of music in our listening rooms. It does not matter if the system is digital or analog, solid state or tube, horns, cones or panels.

When Al and I audition a component, we are not asking ourselves if the DAC sounds like analog to us, we are asking ourselves if it sounds like real music to us. If the goal is to get some semblance of what we hear live into our listening rooms, then, what matters is knowing what live music sounds like, and then spending one's time to find the right gear and setting it up properly. If this past week of listening has taught me anything, it is that arguments about dogma are a distraction. I have now heard digital sound convincing, and that has caused me to pause, to reflect, and to celebrate the possibilities.
 

PeterA

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Thank you, Peter. That was beautifully written, and I understand completely.

You are most welcome, Ron. We all have different listening priorities, and it comes out in our descriptions of what we hear from audio systems. I look forward to reading and rereading your various super speaker reviews for this concept of Presence. I have learned much by listening and afterwards discussing what I have heard with my audio buddies. I hope to someday meet you and share some listening time.
 

PeterA

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Guess you missed Jim Smith post#12, which Al M couldn't answer in his response #16. because he was clueless about the Rossini's different upsampling and filters option.

As Jim posted these upsampling and filters options "can make the difference between pretty good to OMG."

I wonder if Al M knows what filter he's using on his BADA.

I was also really impressed by the Rossini DAC, and I suppose it was an OMG moment for me as well because I had never heard a digital based system sound so convincing. I don't know anything about digital beyond, redbook versus hi rez or CD versus files. I don't even know if I've heard DSD, nor do I know about various filters.

We analog guys have lots of adjustments on our tonearms and phono amps that can be used to "shape" the sound to our liking or to dial it in for a more realistic sound. I don't go around asking others what cartridge loading sounds best with the Lyra Atlas or what the VTF should be until I've heard it sound good and become more curious about what the different options might sound like. The demo was set up for us, and we were left alone to listen for three hours.

This audition at Goodwin's was simply an introduction and quick comparison between two leading DACs that our dealer was willing to have us audition after our very positive demo of the Vivaldi stack. In fact, at that Magico S7, Spectral, Vivaldi demo with perhaps twelve people in attendance, I don't remember anyone asking about filters, sampling rates, upsampling or any of that stuff.

I think if Al considers buying the Rossini DAC, he will start to ask more questions and do a lot of experimentation on his own during a home trial. I know he is reading more about the unit now. There was not really the time to do all of that during that demo. I think Al will contact Paul at Goodwins to get some more details about how it was configured, but the take away for us both was that this particular DAC is extremely good and worth further investigation.
 
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Argonaut

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Al.....Have you also considered the Rossini player ? Alan Sircom for one still favours the laser over the file.

http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/dcs-rossini-disc-player-and-clock/?page=3

I was very much of the same mind, in that HiRez file > DAC was the way I saw myself going, However several hours of A/Bing the variables via a full Vivaldi stack has me uncomfortably juggling figures around my Swede in incorporating a player Rossini or Player Vivaldi as apposed to DAC alone.
 

Jim Smith

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Al.....Have you also considered the Rossini player ? Alan Sircom for one still favours the laser over the file.

http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/dcs-rossini-disc-player-and-clock/?page=3

I was very much of the same mind, in that HiRez file > DAC was the way I saw myself going, However several hours of A/Bing the variables via a full Vivaldi stack has me uncomfortably juggling figures around my Swede in incorporating a player Rossini or Player Vivaldi as apposed to DAC alone.

Have to admit I wondered about this unit as well.
 

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