Entreq Tellus grounding,in england

Mike Lavigne · Feb 16, 2016

Barry2013 said:
Hi Rodney.
I have been reading with great interest the contributions on the Furutech GTX-D NFC (R) thread and the effects of the different metals.
In the context of this thread it has prompted the question as to whether the different plugs/outlets show measurable differences if analysed as in the measurements posted in this thread?

Entreq uses no plugs. it is a little 'earth' unto itself. spades are used to connect to it, the source end can be a spade, an RCA or an XLR.

I have three types of Entreq 'Eartha' cables; the Atlantis, the Apollo, and a Cupper spade.

I think the Atlantis is silver. the others are copper. not sure whether they are plated. they don't carry any signal so they are not going to be stressed.

OTOH the Tripoint Troy is connected to a duplex outlet, but only the ground male plug is live. the hot and cold are dead headed. the Troy Signature I have has an Oyaide plug on it.

sorry if I miss-interpreted your suggestion.

Folsom · Feb 16, 2016

I think we've somewhat established how they work, and it's not "earth" that the box of stuff creates. For one that's not possible. Although some have tried...

It really does it appear that it is a drain for lower frequencies that are radiated, and the material inside is to prevent it from being a huge RF antenna.

Barry2013 · Feb 16, 2016

Mike Lavigne said:
Entreq uses no plugs. it is a little 'earth' unto itself. spades are used to connect to it, the source end can be a spade, an RCA or an XLR.

I have three types of Entreq 'Eartha' cables; the Atlantis, the Apollo, and a Cupper spade.

I think the Atlantis is silver. the others are copper. not sure whether they are plated. they don't carry any signal so they are not going to be stressed.

OTOH the Tripoint Troy is connected to a duplex outlet, but only the ground male plug is live. the hot and cold are dead headed. the Troy Signature I have has an Oyaide plug on it.

sorry if I miss-interpreted your suggestion.

Thanks Mike.
Probably my fault for nor being sufficiently clear
As you can see from my very recent response to BE I am well familiar with Entreq and know that Tripoint employs a mains connection.
What was interesting me was whether different Furutech plugs and outlets using gold and rhodium plating which people report sound different show differences on spectograph measurement analysis..
I am happy to rely on mine and others ears unlike the measurement adherents and wonder if their approach is capable of measurement in the same way that has been undertaken on this thread of the Entreq grounding

Rodney Gold · Feb 16, 2016

I am not a power tweaker of note ... barring the fact my whole hifi room is run off a 5kva pure sine wave inverter fed by banks of 200 ah batteries and charged via the grid and solar, its on its own circuit and has its own distribution board so I dunno how its grounded
More for poor power issues than sound quality.. I live in Afrika...

I just use ordinary power chords in my setup , ordinary plugs.. my thinking is that the power is already conditioned before it gets here , so how much difference can it make?.. maybe Im wrong...
Im more tweaky when it comes to integrating my subs , room treatments and digital room correction and stuff

mauidan · Feb 16, 2016

Mike Lavigne said:
Entreq uses no plugs. it is a little 'earth' unto itself. spades are used to connect to it, the source end can be a spade, an RCA or an XLR.

I have three types of Entreq 'Eartha' cables; the Atlantis, the Apollo, and a Cupper spade.

I think the Atlantis is silver. the others are copper. not sure whether they are plated. they don't carry any signal so they are not going to be stressed.

First, the "spade" connectors on Entreq cables are not spades.

As can be seen in the picture above, they are piece of round wire (copper or silver) bent into the shape of a metal spade. They do not have a flat surface.

From:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_connector#Ring_and_spade_terminals

Ring and spade terminals: Electrical contact is made by the flat surface of the ring or spade,while mechanically they are attached by passing a screw or bolt through them.

Second, the Apollo cables are silver.

Finally, if they're not carrying any signal, how do they work?

RayDunzl · Feb 16, 2016

Here's an exciting interview with Per-Olof Friberg, Chief Designer and CEO of Entreq

Cables discussed then ground boxes at 7:30

P-O · Feb 16, 2016

I´m not a member of WBF or any forum at all. And I have sworn that I never should join any debate on any forum.
But this time I feel that I have too. I´m not comfortable when customers that use our products have to defence themselves and Entreq against people who never try any of our products, but anyhow know that they don’t work and know for sure that it´s cat litter, cloth hangers, dirt etc in bad wood boxes . That they who use our products have faulty systems and that some wires twisted together will do the same thing as our boxes.
A good example of this clever heads is on page 149-151 on the Entreq thread on WBF where they ensure that Amp will blow away if connect negative Spkr to a Poseidon. So far no Amp has blown away and now days no one anymore ensures it will happen. So now it´s other truths they tell everyone who go in the thread..
Yes, of course, cables from each unit twisted together will have an effect, no doubt. Cables of different materials will also give different effect.
If you attach the cables on a Cupper plate you will have another effect. And if you put them on Brass, Magnesium ,Aluminium or what metal plate you choose you will get different effect each time.
Especially audible effect, but also measurable. And this is easy to test for everyone.
The Tellus that was opened and shown on photo are one of our first test ex of Tellus.
It´s no excuse for it look like it do inside, but if you want to comment our woodwork, please take a look at our Athena rack instead.
We spend the effort on what we think is important. A box that never is meant to be opend……………………..??
In the nineties I get 3 Patents approved. 2 of them where “stolen” or used by other bigger companys 2-3 year after we get the Pat approved.
When it happened first time I used lawyers and fight for protect my Pat.
I fight until I was nearly ruined then there was no way protect it anymore
Second time I simply have no money left to fight, so it was easy for another company to just start copy and use my ideas that have cost us a lot to develop and get Pat protection.

The lesson I learn.
Keep your knowledge by yourself. The important is that the customers/users are satisfied with the products and that you are able give them good service. And you are not, if you spend all money and time on try protect your products from copy and defence the products against rumours from people who never will use the products anyway, because they have better solutions created by their own.
So I will not share any of my knowledge or our measurements or any other info just because some trolls shout loudly that we have to. I feel very sorry for all you users who have to take all this **** on forums, when it´s me who are guilty for it and me who should have it instead of you, but I hope you understand me and I hope no one of you users feel that you not have get value for your money when buy our products.
And for you who absolutely need measurements for feel safe with your investing I´m also sorry. But I would not give you any. If it depends on that we don’t have any or if we don’t want to share it??
It´s up to your own imagine, but that´s the way I will continue.
This was a exception. I will not join any debate again in future, but I
would one more time say thank you to our customers. No names, no one forget
PO

LL21 · Feb 16, 2016

P-O,

Many thanks for posting. As someone who is a big fan and one of the 'relatively early' owners of your wonderful products, i enjoy them every day. Thank you for doing great work, creating value in the industry to audiophiles everywhere. On the one hand it is unfortunate there is animosity...on the other hand, your product is great for many of us. And sometimes, that just invites animosity...it happens. Even the most popular leaders, companies, ideas have their detractors.

You have said 'no measurements' and i will respect that. If (in the future) there is a way to provide some non-proprietary technical guidance as to what we are hearing with your products, that would undoubtedly be fascinating to many of us. Sometimes, we appreciate a product even more when we can learn [a little bit] about all the hard work and clever design that went on behind it.

This is a request for your consideration over the long term...not for today, as you have made very clear. All the best and thanks again.

Barry2013 · Feb 16, 2016

Makes sense to me Per.
Would the critics if they were in the position you have described really act differently?

the sound of Tao · Feb 16, 2016

Thanks for clarifying your perspective Per, it is clear your products are giving us optional ways of dealing with the complex cocktail of distortions we need to deal with to get to the core of the pursuit... the easing of the way to connecting to the musical experience.

In the end it is up to us all to trial and evaluate and make our own call since all of our listening environments, systems and perceptions add up to characteristically unique array of conditions to be dealt with. Theory and measurement is a valuable part of assessment but it can not by definition be whole assessment.

Ultimately this is a subjective pursuit and therefore needs to then be validated by forms of subjective assessment.

esldude · Feb 16, 2016

These measurements were much quieter so it looks like the new wire made a big difference. The silence lies a bit lower than -109 db which is a good result. It also is more than 25 db better than the previous measures with the suspect wire. With the Entreq the noise is about .6 db lower. Otherwise there appear to be no general differences.

There is a problem with the 1500 hz sine wave. Somewhere in the chain of devices there was clipping. The upper is with the Entreq (looked the same without) and the lower is the original input wave.

Here is an overlay of the silent noise floor of both devices. While this or that section in the overlay varies slightly watching it real time these peaks go up and down in all the same places. Just random variation in noise. Other than the .6 db difference there are no other differences to be seen in the FFT. Red is with the Entreq and blue is without.

I took the silent portion and amped it by around 90 db so you could listen. I also put a steep low-pass filter at 200 hz and a high pass filter at 400 hz. So you can download the zipped MP3 files and compare each of these three versions for yourself if you wish. Oops left off the attachment. Look two posts down to find it.

Fiddle Faddle · Feb 16, 2016

I realise what I must have done is set the analogue output of the DAC too high and the recording volume of the recording card too low. That would cause the clipping. I've never used the setup to do these sorts of things in the past so it was all a bit (well, a lot) of experimenting. I obviously would have picked it up had I done music as well, but I won't repeat the test because the levels were set exactly the same way on both (so it happened both times) and it was the silent bits I was concentrating on for obvious reasons. Thanks for the overlays of the silent bits.

esldude · Feb 16, 2016

Somehow left off the attachment of amplified silence. So here it is. Download the zip and it will extract into 6 files.

BE718 · Feb 16, 2016

Fiddle Faddle said:
Hi again,

This is my last post in this thread. As I say, I am not a measurements person and it was never my intention to get into a debate regarding measurements on any topic, let alone Entreq products. It is just unfortunate for me (and arguably fortunate for others) that this topic ended up being a measurement thread outside of the forum where such threads ought to belong. This whole saga started because I very much like what my base level Entreq Minimus Copper boxes do with the two systems I have them in and I decided to record what an LP sounded like with and without the box connected. Of course it all went on from there and we got into a measurement process which was never my intention (my intention was only for people to listen to the two different files). I likely would never have posted those original LP files at all if I had known we would go to "digital" measurements since as I have said often enough, I am not ordinarily "geared up" to record from a digital source (I only digitally record from a fully analogue sources or perform digital to digital when I am doing certain DSP hardware functions).

Anyway, I was pretty horrified as I have said before with that first cable I used to connect the playback soundcard "with Entreq" to the recording one so as to capture that output when doing the "digital" measurements. I knew the cable was not one designed for that purpose but I reiterate I live on an extremely tight budget (one reason for only owning the very entry level Entreq gear) and I did not wish to go out and spend money. But even tonight I realised that those sorts of cables are also used as de facto FM antennas on portable music devices . This horrified me even more because an "antenna effect" has been discussed here in relation to the possible effects the boxes may or may not produce.

So given that I soldered together a "proper" interconnect last night from bits I bought from Jaycar Electronics yesterday, I have decided to post one last set of files and images. And this is definitely the last. I have had more than enough of this and I am stressed out and losing sleep over it (truly).

So below you will find one last, simple test (no music this time) - it is a 20 second input file at 24 bit, 48 KHz. The first 10 seconds is complete silence, the second 10 seconds consists of a pure sine wave at -5 dBFS. The only real reason I included the sine wave was to "certify" that both output files were created with the various volume / record level settings set identically. In other words, -5 dBFS went in from the DAC analogue output and -5 dBFS went out to the ADC.

I can now confirm that the results are actually pretty much as they used to be (improved noise floor), however this time around I don't really see any significant noise added, unlike last time. If you were to overlay the two graphs, you will see a slight lowering of ostensibly the entire noise floor with the box connected. Yes, there are some bits that are bit higher but I think if you were to overlay them both you would see an overall noise advantage in favour of the box connected. Perhaps the differing noise "profiles" of the various Entreq boxes and cables is one of the reasons they sound different to each other (they certainly sounded quite different to me when I auditioned them).

Please remember too that this is Entreq's entry-level product. Entreq make far more exotic performance claims for even the very next box up in their range and even after that there are about 3 or 4 ways to further improve the setup - even if you are just talking about one type of connection such as connecting a DAC or amplifier. To put it into perspective, the total cost of the Entreq gear used in this test is around $750 AUD. Just the next box up is double the price of mine and the type of Entreq stuff that most members here own is magnitudes ahead of what I own.

The conclusion I draw from this exercise and the attached files is that at least in my systems and with my setups (as modest as they are), the Entreq Minimus Copper box with the Konstantin cable does make a measureable difference. It may not be a large improvement but I believe I can see it in the graph (I cannot overlay them myself) and I can hear it with my ears. Others will surely draw other conclusions however this is no longer my concern. I hope these final files and graphs are useful to at least some people. As for the comparative music files I previously posted, I have absolutely no reason to consider them worthless, since if you actually listen to them you will still hear the same effect that I hear when listening to live music.

Anyway, thanks for the supportive comments from some people in the thread. I just hope Entreq's lawyers do not land on my doorstep for posting those previous measurements with that terrible cable! As I say this was my mistake and I should not have posted those files (but as indicated, the music only ones "sound" fine and are indicative of the Entreq "effect").

Thank you.

Graph # 1. This shows the noise floor resulting from a digital to analogue and analogue to digital conversion process of a 24 bit file containing "digital silence". No Entreq box or Entreq cable was connected to the playback soundcard in this instance. The Entreq box and cable had been disconnected for 30 minutes before this test was performed. The graph covers the scale of -96 dBFS to -150 dBFS:

View attachment 25786

Graph # 2. This shows the noise floor in identical circumstances to Graph # 1 above, however in this instance, a base level Entreq Minimus Copper box was connected to the SPDIF RCA output terminal of the playback sound card. The cable used to connect the soundcard to the Entreq box is the Eartha Konstantin. The box and cable had been connected for 24 hours prior to this test being performed. The graph covers the scale of -96 dBFS to -150 dBFS:

View attachment 25787

Perhaps Amir might be considerate enough to do an "overlay" analysis like he did before, as I do not know how to make such useful and lucid graphs.

Finally, here is the suite of test files and actual pgn images of the above graphs. The graphs above were made by analysing the first 480,000 samples in each of the two output files.

https://www.sendspace.com/file/o8rh7s

A glance at the second entreq plot shows that there are multiple new spuria. I will look more closely

BE718 · Feb 16, 2016

P-O said:
I´m not a member of WBF or any forum at all. And I have sworn that I never should join any debate on any forum.
But this time I feel that I have too. I´m not comfortable when customers that use our products have to defence themselves and Entreq against people who never try any of our products, but anyhow know that they don’t work and know for sure that it´s cat litter, cloth hangers, dirt etc in bad wood boxes . That they who use our products have faulty systems and that some wires twisted together will do the same thing as our boxes.
A good example of this clever heads is on page 149-151 on the Entreq thread on WBF where they ensure that Amp will blow away if connect negative Spkr to a Poseidon. So far no Amp has blown away and now days no one anymore ensures it will happen. So now it´s other truths they tell everyone who go in the thread..
Yes, of course, cables from each unit twisted together will have an effect, no doubt. Cables of different materials will also give different effect.
If you attach the cables on a Cupper plate you will have another effect. And if you put them on Brass, Magnesium ,Aluminium or what metal plate you choose you will get different effect each time.
Especially audible effect, but also measurable. And this is easy to test for everyone.
The Tellus that was opened and shown on photo are one of our first test ex of Tellus.
It´s no excuse for it look like it do inside, but if you want to comment our woodwork, please take a look at our Athena rack instead.
We spend the effort on what we think is important. A box that never is meant to be opend……………………..??
In the nineties I get 3 Patents approved. 2 of them where “stolen” or used by other bigger companys 2-3 year after we get the Pat approved.
When it happened first time I used lawyers and fight for protect my Pat.
I fight until I was nearly ruined then there was no way protect it anymore
Second time I simply have no money left to fight, so it was easy for another company to just start copy and use my ideas that have cost us a lot to develop and get Pat protection.

The lesson I learn.
Keep your knowledge by yourself. The important is that the customers/users are satisfied with the products and that you are able give them good service. And you are not, if you spend all money and time on try protect your products from copy and defence the products against rumours from people who never will use the products anyway, because they have better solutions created by their own.
So I will not share any of my knowledge or our measurements or any other info just because some trolls shout loudly that we have to. I feel very sorry for all you users who have to take all this **** on forums, when it´s me who are guilty for it and me who should have it instead of you, but I hope you understand me and I hope no one of you users feel that you not have get value for your money when buy our products.
And for you who absolutely need measurements for feel safe with your investing I´m also sorry. But I would not give you any. If it depends on that we don’t have any or if we don’t want to share it??
It´s up to your own imagine, but that´s the way I will continue.
This was a exception. I will not join any debate again in future, but I
would one more time say thank you to our customers. No names, no one forget
PO

Thanks for your response PO.

Unfortunately it just re-inforces my opinion that these products are performing no useful technical function beyond that which could be achieved by simply joining the components together with ordinary cheap cable and a connector block....and that could cause problems, situation dependant.

Owners have no need to defend themselves, there is no criticism of them, however it would be very interesting to find out what your technical explanation of the products operation would be. You seem unwilling or unable to share.

Regarding your comments about different cable/plate materials, as my background is instrumentation, I am very familiar with the concept of and the effect of joining dissimilar metals. I have used it on a daily basis with thermocouple temperature measurements. The joint of dissimilar metals will create a voltage proportional to the temperature of the junction. Can you explain why you feel this would be a good thing, to connect the bits of equipment signal grounds to each other with a voltage source in between?

Can you also explain if your understanding is that noise enters the box and just dissipates?

Thanks for your time, I hope you will change you mind and contribute further.

I dont need measurements, but they sure do help to understand what is going on in a system.

Fiddle Faddle · Feb 16, 2016

I just made an animated gif of my previous graphs. It makes it easier to compare the two and to my eyes is preferable to an overlay in this particular case.

https://www.sendspace.com/file/3rkpnk

Barry2013 · Feb 16, 2016

BE718 said:
Thanks for your response PO.

Unfortunately it just re-inforces my opinion that these products are performing no useful technical function beyond that which could be achieved by simply joining the components together with ordinary cheap cable and a connector block....and that could cause problems, situation dependant.

Owners have no need to defend themselves, there is no criticism of them, however it would be very interesting to find out what your technical explanation of the products operation would be. You seem unwilling or unable to share.

Regarding your comments about different cable/plate materials, as my background is instrumentation, I am very familiar with the concept of and the effect of joining dissimilar metals. I have used it on a daily basis with thermocouple temperature measurements. The joint of dissimilar metals will create a voltage proportional to the temperature of the junction. Can you explain why you feel this would be a good thing, to connect the bits of equipment signal grounds to each other with a voltage source in between?

Can you also explain if your understanding is that noise enters the box and just dissipates?

Thanks for your time, I hope you will change you mind and contribute further.

I dont need measurements, but they sure do help to understand what is going on in a system.

It strikes me as a bit rich BE for you to criticise PO for not disclosing more technical details, for reasons that seem to me to be entirely understandable, while you remain resolutely coy about the details of your system and how you achieve the results you have posted.

jkeny · Feb 16, 2016

Barry2013 said:
It strikes me as a bit rich BE for you to criticise PO for not disclosing more technical details, for reasons that seem to me to be entirely understandable, while you remain resolutely coy about the details of your system and how you achieve the results you have posted.

Yes, it's a question I've asked him many times but so far no details

What interests me is this:
The claim was made by him that if these devices change the sound of a system, then that system is effectively broken - has grounding issues.
The flip side of this claim is that if these devices don't change the sound of your system, then your system is masking audible differences.

I've seen this before where DACs use ASRCs in their input circuitry. Some people really like the sound of these & claim that all the inputs (USB, SPDIF, optical) of their DAC sound the same. I've heard these ASRCs & when they can be bypassed one can hear the audible improvement & different inputs sound different. Auditory perception is a tricky business & one has to be careful in not hearing according to your expectations

Whichever BE system turns out to be - a system that is optimally designed such that the Intona or Regen (& according to him the Entreq will follow suit) make no audible difference or his system is masking any audible differences of these devices - whichever it turns out to be, it will be educational

esldude · Feb 16, 2016

Fiddle Faddle said:
I just made an animated gif of my previous graphs. It makes it easier to compare the two and to my eyes is preferable to an overlay in this particular case.

Yes, that is an excellent idea. Is easier to see that way.

I don't know how you are creating your GIFs, but is this FFT a composite of several seconds or a screen shot of a real time result? The reason I ask is noise floors bounce around. So which looks quieter will depend on when you do the snapshot real time. If a composite of several seconds it should show the total difference better.

Those I posted were snapshots of real time results. So I could leave an overlay on screen for one and run the second one. It would wiggle up and down sometimes quieter looking and sometimes higher in level. I tried to get a representative shot. The numbers I put up about the .6 db level difference were from analyzing all of the silence as a composite.

BE718 · Feb 16, 2016

Barry2013 said:
It strikes me as a bit rich BE for you to criticise PO for not disclosing more technical details, for reasons that seem to me to be entirely understandable, while you remain resolutely coy about the details of your system and how you achieve the results you have posted.

Oh really.

Now now, dont use JK baiting tactics.

I already explained quite simply that there is no earth connection in my system. JK already knows full well what equipment I have, so I am not sure why he keeps asking

.

Tag Mclaren processor and power amp, a MDAC, NCORE NC400 monoblocks and guess what BE718 Usher speakers. Also Oppo PM1 headphones. I have an Onkyo NR5010 for home theatre duties. Cables are Belden/Mogami.

I think POs reticence to talk about the technicalities of this product has nothing to do with commercial IP. The Chinese are already knocking of $30 copies. Describing the alleged principle of operation would be no threat to that IP anyway as it is so easy to copy.

Measurements are performed with a Texas Instruments PCM4222evm board.

Hope that helps

Entreq Tellus grounding,in england

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