This is why the digital copy will be sourced from the vinyl. So all the vinyl coloration's that make the music sound closer to the real live event, will be captured as well.
The official audio myth busting thread
- Thread starter Blizzard
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This is why the digital copy will be sourced from the vinyl. So all the vinyl coloration's that make the music sound closer to the real live event, will be captured as well.
That's okay because the fade ins and outs can be random. It won't matter because nobody will know which is which anyways. We only need to assure the levels are perfectly matched, and the needle drop sound isn't heard.
Anyways it's alright if we give team vinyl a few hints to make it fair. We have measurements on our side, they need something besides their ears.
I, and I'm sure Al M., would join the panel if the date and location are convenient for us and don't involve a lot of travel and expense. I appreciate that you can't refer to anyone specific who made such a statement. If it is only your impression, that can't really be questioned by others.
As far as your listening experience is concerned, and specifically with live classical music and with turntables, you showed a picture of a toy turntable and turned my questions into a joke response. So you must excuse those who, like me, have the impression that your listening experiences may be limited in those two areas because, unless I have missed it, you don't seem to discuss listening to live music, or to analog.
I should also add that a few years ago I mentioned to some of my digital friends that I might one day consider adding digital files to my audio system. At the time, I had not heard digital reproduction that satisfied me enough to add a new format. That, and cost, is why I only have analog now. As I wrote before, I am open to being convinced of digital's improvements. If I like the sound enough, I might consider adding it to my system in addition to my analog. I think you have the impression that I am entrenched and can not be convinced about digital. I hereby write that that is not the case. Time will tell.
Well it would be in the Seattle area sometime in the spring based on the vague plans we have discussed. We will also need to gather all of the necessary gear as well. I personally don't own all of the gear required.
Personally I haven't heard the best of the best turntable setups out there. So all I can go off of it what other's who have to say. What I heard in the morning today didn't sound like the top vinyl was a clear winner vs the Merging NADAC. David robinson and Jan Eric Persson felt the same vs the R2R. Either way I have no interest in technology from the last century, as it's definitely not the future. I'm more interested in what will be the hot tech in audio 5-10 years from now, rather than 30-50 years ago.
Would it not make more sense to set up the challenge, at least as a planned event, with a specific location and time and then invite individuals to attend? It does not seem relevant to know who is coming beforehand in order to set up the venue and test procedures. You just need a host and people to supply the needed gear. I'm sure there are plenty of people who know how to listen to both analog and digital in the Seattle area. Perhaps even some musicians. Why do you think they need to be "trained" listeners. Harmon does not seem to use trained listeners exclusively for their testing.
And I can attest to Peter's openmindedness. When Peter heard the dCS Vivaldi in the same session as I did he was deeply impressed and said that the experience completely changed his outlook on what digital can do, and that at this level of reproduction the format, analog or digital, did not seem to matter as much anymore.
If nobody's going to come anyways, what's the point of organizing such an elaborate event. They need to be "known vinyl enthusiasts" the kind of guys who people look up to and trust as true golden ears. You don't understand why this is important? We need people with strong opposing views as explained in post #1 of this thread.
I was just humorous Lee. And I made sure of that...with the proper smiley.
And it is tough for anyone, any human being when stressed a little, to remain calm, with a good sense of humor, @ all times, when often insulted, ...it makes for an easy prey.
We often see the faults in people, more than the qualities. A balancing judgement with genuine human compassion is a rare commodity in man's history.
I am speaking generally, and about any life's avenues. I am not thinking about here, but life in general.
You can say that; nice to laugh openly and from the heart honestly.
* No insult directed towards you Amir; you are still my number one audio master guru in my book.
It's just that my book has minimal audience. :b
Blizzard/Mike,
if you are looking for buy-in for your agenda from a group you have continually antagonized time and time again, then that is a bit naïve I think. sure; there are those here who love that you poke the bear so to speak, but my guess is that hard core analog lovers have little interest in getting involved with you as things currently stand. if you really want that to change, then you need to pull in your fangs a bit and be more considerate and respectful in how you interact. recognize the limitations of your own experience if that is possible. qualify some of your 'proclamations'.
I speak for no one but myself on this, and am only guessing how other vinyl folk (known vinyl enthusiasts) feel.
when you approach people with such strong clear agendas and attitudes then who wants to get involved with that. any 'event' would have winners and losers, finger pointing and excuse making, as opposed to learning.
my feelings are that this post's message will go in one ear and out the other and not even register in your mind. but i thought it was worth at least one shot. I'm all for fun audio/music events when there is a spirit of common ground, not open warfare.
Well, my predictions are people WILL NOT be able to tell the difference between analog and a digital recording of the analog device, whatever it is, and it won't even take quad DSD to achieve it. In the short term...
BUT, the issue is more likely with longer term listening and fatigue issues. My theory is that digital results in more agitation of the nervous system and the biggest difference is in the way your body, nervous system and mind react to the sensory input over time.
Therefore, we may need to measure brain activity of the listener between analog and digital as well. Any brain research scientists here?
+1...that is why I referenced the German study....
Can someone locate the thread where Bruce B. (pro recordist) Gary K. (pro speaker designer), and jazdoc assembled together @ Mike Lavigne's ultra audiophile home for a music listening session in comparing open-real tapes, crystal discs (from Gary), LPs, SACDs, high res audio files (from Bruce)...so from both Sota analog and digital rigs?
The winners were 1. Analog R2R tapes and followed closely by 2. LPs. But some of the high res audio files (Bruce provided few @ various res and 2xDSD recordings) were sounding real good too, and so Gary's crystal discs (@ $1,600 a pop for some of them...if my memory is close enough).
And Mike Lavigne has a top-notch analog and digital rigs. That thread was one of the most interesting ones to me here @ WBF. I trust all these high caliber gentlemen.
@ the end all these audio formats, analog and digital, sound phenomenally excellent, when well mastered and recorded from some of the best in the business and with the best tools and right dose of EQ. ...The master tapes are usually the best sounding, but those you cannot buy @ your local amazon audio store...you need connections from the underworld.
And cost could be well prohibitive for most (even for the well high heeled ones).
But cost wasn't the objective; best sound was.
Yeah, I would like to locate that thread...
___________
? http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...enesis-Speaker&p=219787&viewfull=1#post219787
?? http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/the-2000-cd-made-from-glass-1/
??? http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-or-will-there-appear-better-masterings-on-it
???? http://tapeproject.com/testimonials/
????? http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...enesis-Speaker&p=219732&viewfull=1#post219732 ===> The evaluation results (page 31, post #309) | start
<<<•>>> That's the thread: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-Disc-US-1600-was-played-with-Genesis-Speaker
The winners were 1. Analog R2R tapes and followed closely by 2. LPs. But some of the high res audio files (Bruce provided few @ various res and 2xDSD recordings) were sounding real good too, and so Gary's crystal discs (@ $1,600 a pop for some of them...if my memory is close enough).
And Mike Lavigne has a top-notch analog and digital rigs. That thread was one of the most interesting ones to me here @ WBF. I trust all these high caliber gentlemen.
@ the end all these audio formats, analog and digital, sound phenomenally excellent, when well mastered and recorded from some of the best in the business and with the best tools and right dose of EQ. ...The master tapes are usually the best sounding, but those you cannot buy @ your local amazon audio store...you need connections from the underworld.
And cost could be well prohibitive for most (even for the well high heeled ones).
But cost wasn't the objective; best sound was.
Yeah, I would like to locate that thread...
___________
? http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...enesis-Speaker&p=219787&viewfull=1#post219787
?? http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/the-2000-cd-made-from-glass-1/
??? http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-or-will-there-appear-better-masterings-on-it
???? http://tapeproject.com/testimonials/
????? http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...enesis-Speaker&p=219732&viewfull=1#post219732 ===> The evaluation results (page 31, post #309) | start
<<<•>>> That's the thread: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-Disc-US-1600-was-played-with-Genesis-Speaker
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There are good points in what you say MileL so I want to make sure it doesn't get ignored too quickly.
Blizzard, I think you are not going to find willing people for reasons Mike mentions. Our best bet is to work with people who are not so emotional about this topic and are interested in investigation. And me...
Two vexing anecdotes from two well known audio reviewers:
1. Vinyl rip to 24/192 hi rez PCM indistinguishable: http://www.stereophile.com/content/ayre-acoustics-qa-9-usb-ad-converter-page-3#HGVQ6UFIlZhobbQ0.97
2. R2R rip to Quad SDS also indistinguishable: http://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/impressions-the-merging-technology-nadac-mc-8-dsd-dac/
1. Vinyl rip to 24/192 hi rez PCM indistinguishable: http://www.stereophile.com/content/ayre-acoustics-qa-9-usb-ad-converter-page-3#HGVQ6UFIlZhobbQ0.97
2. R2R rip to Quad SDS also indistinguishable: http://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/impressions-the-merging-technology-nadac-mc-8-dsd-dac/
I found what I was looking for, and more: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...busting-thread&p=373199&viewfull=1#post373199
This isn't about emotion to me Amir. I have no emotional attachment to format's. To me it's about the music, sound quality and convenience in which I can enjoy it. Of course cost comes into play as well. If I can get the sound of a $150K vinyl rig out of a $4200 DAC, then even if it was as much of a pain in the ass as vinyl is, I would go for it.
Sounds like a cop out if I've ever heard one. Bock bock bock!!
Really Mike? If you're going to act like an ass, then count me out. I was going to let you use all the equipment necessary to capture all the data.
But were those guys self proclaimed "real vinyl enthusiasts"?
And if you're an studio engineer, that disqualifies you because that means you're in the pro sound camp, and every audiophile, especially vinyl enthusiast knows that the recording engineers, and anyone related to the "pro sound world, is clueless when it comes to what "home based self proclaimed golden eared vinyl enthusiasts" know.
Once that recording leaves the master tape, theres so many super expensive ways that can make the data far superior to the source. Didn't you know??
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