Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
To those who have trained ears and know what to listen for, differences can be more pronounced.
Conclusive "Proof" that higher resolution audio sounds different
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
To those who have trained ears and know what to listen for, differences can be more pronounced.
Just aplly a logarithmic scale to the audiophile hyprerbole and the two scales are equivalent - and then you will be able to enjoy audiophile forums more ...
In what aspects do you think they sound different?
Agreed. Audible, even with training, extensive experience and concentration to the point of listening for artifacts, not to music, is more pronounced than inaudible.
Tim
I suspect Bruce is using music...Agreed. Audible, even with training, extensive experience and concentration to the point of listening for artifacts, not to music, is more pronounced than inaudible.
Tim
I'm sure he us. I was referring to Amir's success in quantifying the audible differences, and what was required to hear them.
Tim
The process is no different from tuning your guitar Tim. When you have a reference you know what is "off".
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Just like in the medical field. You see thousands of "normals" and when that "Abby-normal" comes to see you, it's a night/day experience.
It's not just limited to technology, John. On the guitar forums, my only other hobby, the difference between basic models and premium models, between premium models and vintage repros, between vintage repros and custom shop, between the best factory custom shop models and the "hand-built" luthier guitars...are all presented by some in dramatic, hyperbolic terms. I've owned every level. I have the reference points. I've owned the normal and the "abby-normal." And can I still recognize exaggeration when I see it. There's not nearly as much of it, though. It's there, but it doesn't seem to dominate the dialogue the way it does in the audiophile world.
Tim
I dunno about that Tim. I look at hyperbole differently when it comes to a new, hopefully happy, owner. The guy is just expressing his happiness. I don't think we have to be so literal about everything. I look at marketing hyperbole differently. I know what the purpose of that is as well so the BS detector gets turned on. At the end of the day, the question that needs to be answered is if the product lives up to the hype. That is a personal call.
The problem with audio is that communicating feelings is so friggin' hard. Take it from somebody that sells the stuff. Personally, I gave up. I'm like, "here I'll take it to your place and you tell me" or "take along some of your favourite tracks and come over". Demo-ing is so much easier. Once in a while I'll write a review but to be honest, I do it more for myself than anything else. They are like diary entries, something I can look back on in the future to help keep me honest.
The problem with audio is that communicating feelings is so friggin' hard. Take it from somebody that sells the stuff. Personally, I gave up. I'm like, "here I'll take it to your place and you tell me" or "take along some of your favourite tracks and come over". Demo-ing is so much easier. Once in a while I'll write a review but to be honest, I do it more for myself than anything else. They are like diary entries, something I can look back on in the future to help keep me honest.
Bruce and how many of us do have those trained ears? Research shows that we, audiophiles do not fare well. Of course you could be one of the few who do fare extremely well...
The "Night and Day"differences are also greatly helped by knowledge of the product under evaluation .... I am just saying
Bruce and how many of us do have those trained ears? Research shows that we, audiophiles do not fare well. Of course you could be one of the few who do fare extremely well...
The "Night and Day"differences are also greatly helped by knowledge of the product under evaluation .... I am just saying
If you buy into that marketing, err... science. It's curious how people selectively believe things.
Bruce and how many of us do have those trained ears? Research shows that we, audiophiles do not fare well. Of course you could be one of the few who do fare extremely well...
The "Night and Day"differences are also greatly helped by knowledge of the product under evaluation .... I am just saying
If you use a DAC that upsamples Redbook and downsamples hirez files to the same frequency, you're not going fare very well at hearing any differences.
Tim,
If a type of expression dominates the audiophile world IMHO one should adapt to understand it if he wants to understand other people messages. Using their hyperbole and style the high end community (professionals and consumers) has found what Amir has proved now many years ago. Audiophiles must be happy for that.
Yeah, it is also compounded that music is about enjoyment-satisfaction and critically communicating the emotional context and connection the writer/composer intended.
These are usually beyond "normal" objective and quantifiable variables in the context of say this thread and various other audio related subjects and topics, especially as the emotional context and musical connection can be a combination of or on its own based upon rythm-instrument and how played-harmonics-tone/key/etc-etc.
From what I remember for recent scientific research, music does use both mathematical (mathematical beauty) and linguistic aspect of the brain - ok that is putting it very simplistic I know
All we can say for sure IMO is; blind ABX IS tough and in many ways artificial requiring a specific approach-scope and methodology for both the tester and critically the listener to have any meaning.
If there is a successful test then it comes down to there is a difference and investigating why and the potential implications and scope, anything else is speculation.
Cheers
Orb
Well knowing the trait it's easy to adjust one's scale when reading forum posts. That's why it's useful to get to know posters & their style.
I bought a 2nd hand SLK a while back & looked at the MB forums where I saw a performance tweak/adjustment that no MB service ever addresses - cleaning the mass airflow sensor (MAF) & other related units. I had my mechanic do the job (smallish job) & expected some performance boost (based on the forum posts) when I first drove it - nada.
However a short time later when I had my wife in the car she noticed how much smoother my reverse parking was - the car was producing a much smoother low speed take-up. Not what I expected based on reading posts & a little bit of knowledge of what the MAF does. Some might miss the change it makes being more focussed on the performance side of the car only.
Oh, btw it has made a difference to my long-term pleasure in driving the car - I missed the fine low speed clutch based control I always had with manual shift cars but now it's fine, I don't miss it.
Does this sound a bit like an audio tweak review - even down to my wife being involved in the review?
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Yes, agreed & this is where the personal preference aspect comes in - people value different aspects differently/focus on different aspects - it's not that we "all hear differently",it's that we value & focus on different aspects of the soundfield. The soundfield & our reception of it is by-and-large the same for all people of average hearing, I believe, - too much is made of HF loss as we age - how important do we really think this is based on Amir's test results? There's more to it than just HF acuity.
I also believe that latest research shows that the visual cortex has a role in hearingFrom what I remember for recent scientific research, music does use both mathematical (mathematical beauty) and linguistic aspect of the brain - ok that is putting it very simplistic I know
Thanks, Orb, your thoughts & learning on blind testing is valuable & much appreciated
Read The Brain that Changes Itself, the science of neuroplasticity or sensory substitution. The long held theory that specific areas in the brain control defined functions eg. localization, is no longer valid. In fact, look at the chapter where the researchers use sound to retrain blind people to see. Some amazing work being done by Bach-Y-Rita and researchers in Germany and Israel as well as around the world.
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