Sme 30/2
- Thread starter Bruce B
- Start date
I was visiting at the Vienna State Opera Archives this past November. I believe that you were mentioned during one of the more audio-oriented conversations (smile).
cheers, jonathan
Yes Jonathan, that would not surprise me. I was there in December of 2012 and the Lyra cartridges were often mentioned. The Director has become a very dear friend and has offered me much advice about gear and music. "Conversation" is perhaps to generous a term to describe my role when sitting at the desk in the Archives or in that famous cafeteria. I found myself mostly listening. We have more of a teacher/student relationship. I'm sure your visit was both extremely enjoyable and informative. Such fun and exposure to great music.
Incidentally, your Lyra Atlas is successfully used on quite a few SME V-12 arms. I've spoken extensively to both Dr. Poltun and to Albert Porter about the wonderful combination.
Do you find yourself enjoying the final performances more, or the various rehearsals? From a listening perspective, I find myself learning a lot from the rehearsals, with my ears as far inside the orchestra pit as my neck will allow (smile). The earlier rehearsals are equally instructive, perhaps more so, as we visitors share the same stage as the orchestra and sit only 6-8 feet away.
As always. I firmly believe that being at the Vienna Opera House is the most educational listening lesson that a non-musician can experience.
When we visited last November, Dr. Poltun got his first taste of the Etna, and declared himself quite happy with the results.
kind regards, jonathan
Jonathan, That is funny. I was referring to my listening sessions at the Archive desk and the cafeteria to the teachings of Dr. Poltun. Listening to actual music is another matter. I attended four closed rehearsals sitting at the edge of the pit. The energy coming off of those instruments is completely different from what I heard with my wife sitting in excellent seats listening to the final performances of four different operas later in the evenings. That is in part why Dr. Poltun argues that there is no "absolute sound." Fine equipment set up properly can remind us of what a cello or soprano sounds like in a general sense and that it sounds different from a viola or violin, or a tenor. But what my time in Vienna taught me is that music is energy and that we experience that energy in many different ways depending on where we sit, how crowded the hall is, what the temperature is, what mood the musician is in, etc and all we can hope for from our systems is to be reminded of some of that experience and to have the joy of listening to a historic event which will never take place in our listening rooms.
I agree completely that such direct exposure to this energy from a great instrument played by a great musician and then hearing the final performance in a great hall such as that in Vienna, is the ultimate lesson for a non-musician and music lover. I enjoyed both the rehearsals and the final performances, but for different reasons.
I'm sorry to have drifted the conversation of Bruce's thread in this direction, but I can add that I received my SME 30/12 six months before visiting Vienna. My host recommended the table for the reasons discussed about. I had been told before arriving at the Opera House that that table reproduces much of what I would experience during my visit and I found that to be entirely true. Upon my return, I adjusted VTA and cartridge loading to better match what I had heard. Many of the musicians in the Vienna Philharmonic own SME turntables and Bruce is well on his way to really discovering what music lies in the grooves of his record collection. Bruce made an excellent choice.
Peter: Complete and total agreement with everything that you wrote.
If you ever get the chance to have good musicians play live in your living room (or that of a friend), that is also a hugely educational experience (smile).
Regarding loading of low-impedance MC cartridges, in general I recommend trying to reduce any capacitances present between cartridge and phono stage input to as little as possible. Use the lowest-capacitance phono cable that seems decent, turn off any additional capacitance in the input stage of the phono amplifier etc.
The reduced capacitance should make it possible for you use a wider range of loading impedances without having the sound go bright, peaky or thin-bodied. Conversely, any excess capacitance between cartridge and phono stage input will almost certainly force you into choosing lower loading impedances to save your ears.
Being able to use higher-value loading impedances should allow you to hear more of the dynamics and resolution that the cartridge is capable of, while using lower-value loading impedances will limit how much of the cartridge's dynamics and resolution that you can usefully extract.
As you said, live music is energy, and audio reproduction equipment should suppress that energy to the least extent possible.
hth, jonathan
If you ever get the chance to have good musicians play live in your living room (or that of a friend), that is also a hugely educational experience (smile).
Regarding loading of low-impedance MC cartridges, in general I recommend trying to reduce any capacitances present between cartridge and phono stage input to as little as possible. Use the lowest-capacitance phono cable that seems decent, turn off any additional capacitance in the input stage of the phono amplifier etc.
The reduced capacitance should make it possible for you use a wider range of loading impedances without having the sound go bright, peaky or thin-bodied. Conversely, any excess capacitance between cartridge and phono stage input will almost certainly force you into choosing lower loading impedances to save your ears.
Being able to use higher-value loading impedances should allow you to hear more of the dynamics and resolution that the cartridge is capable of, while using lower-value loading impedances will limit how much of the cartridge's dynamics and resolution that you can usefully extract.
As you said, live music is energy, and audio reproduction equipment should suppress that energy to the least extent possible.
hth, jonathan
Thanks Peter
I haven't really had time to listen to it much. Then I sent my phono pre back to Nick for an upgrade. The wife says it was just delivered. I took the console out of my Post room and turning it into another mastering room. Things are a little in transition now and will report back once the dust has settled.
Interesting point you make Rockit---I had superior dynamics from my two Carts -Shindo SPU/ Ortofon A90--with my Active MC Phono stage( Vendetta SCP-2T) than the Auditorium SUT Auriéges MM
The latter being the more aligned "correct" for the carts--but not for the Sonics--well to my ears anyway!
BruceD
The latter being the more aligned "correct" for the carts--but not for the Sonics--well to my ears anyway!
BruceD
Got a question for the vinylphiles. Which protractor is more accurate? The SME protractor only measures overhang/zenith in one spot, whereas protractors like the dB allow you to measure in the 2 null points of the arc.
Bruce,
Another never ending debate witch lasted for at less five decades. I remember seeing articles in Wireless World about the optimum overhang and zenith since the early sixties. I think it will depend a lot on cartridge - the effects of angle error will be very different for different types. We have to weight the distortion in differential and integral modes, and many people will have different opinions on the subject. When I use an SME arm I always use the SME protractor - I would feel guilty using another approach in this classical arm.
One of the good thinks about the tangential Forsell arm is that cartridge setup is very easy - but it has other problems!
If someone feels very worried about these subjects he should get an Edison phonograph.
I'm already down one point by not being able to adjust azimuth!
I didn't want to cumulatively add to the mix by making a a less than best decision with this as well!
Bruce,
got to measure overhang at 2 null points for optimal set-up. but it's a matter of degrees of accuracy. 2 null points is better, but one can work. one point simply does not define an arc, whereas 2 points do. one point could define an infinite number of arcs.
get a Mint Lp and then don't stress about a protractor. it's cheap ($110 plus shipping the last time I looked) and built exactly for your arm and tt spindle size for exact set-up. it also has a very precise thin arc line for precision. some templates have wide lines which reduce precision. as long as you have a good template for spindle to pivot with your arm then you are good to go. since you have an SME tt and arm that part is not an issue.
you will easily hear the difference in performance with a good Mint Lp set-up.
if you get a Mint Lp I'd be more than happy to stop by and walk you thru it if you like.
got to measure overhang at 2 null points for optimal set-up. but it's a matter of degrees of accuracy. 2 null points is better, but one can work. one point simply does not define an arc, whereas 2 points do. one point could define an infinite number of arcs.
get a Mint Lp and then don't stress about a protractor. it's cheap ($110 plus shipping the last time I looked) and built exactly for your arm and tt spindle size for exact set-up. it also has a very precise thin arc line for precision. some templates have wide lines which reduce precision. as long as you have a good template for spindle to pivot with your arm then you are good to go. since you have an SME tt and arm that part is not an issue.
you will easily hear the difference in performance with a good Mint Lp set-up.
if you get a Mint Lp I'd be more than happy to stop by and walk you thru it if you like.
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Thanks Mike.... just ordered one. Unfortunately it looks like it won't be here 'til mid November!
I'm already down one point by not being able to adjust azimuth!
You should check for crosstalk using a test LP - if it is excessive you should ask for a new cartridge from the manufacturer!
The SME arm geometry was calculated for minimal errors with the supplied protractor - remember that in a SME arm you are able to adjust the distance from the turntable spindle to the arm vertical axis very accurately and easily. The limit to accuracy is given by the alignment of the cartridge with the head-shell, this will happen with any protractor.
Although I believe some vinyl perfectionists using special protractors and the ears can improve over the SME supplied tools (protractor and positioning tools), I doubt that occasional amateurs such as me can better it easily.
I just received the Ultimate Analogue Test LP and was going to use the method Fremer described measuring the opposite channel output. Looks like an evening of wine, song and a lot a patience! Just now finished putting on my little finger-lift thingy I got from Chad.
I have an SME table and arm. I used the SME protractor until I ordered a MINT LP arc-type protractor. The SME was close, but the MINT is slightly better. When Yip builds one for you, you must supply a very precise cartridge mounting hole to stylus tip distance so that he can trace the correct arc for the SME arm and your specific cartridge. Unlike with other arms that have slots in the headshell, the SME arms do not so you must give Yip that distance for his protractor to be accurate.
The advantage of the MINT is the zenith alignment at the null points. I think this is what microstrip refers to as "the alignment of the cartridge with the head-shell." This is extremely accurate and the results were clearly audible in my system.
Here is a photo:
Attachments
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IMG_0630.jpg
Peter,
don't SME arms have an adjustment in the pivot tower instead of cartridge slots? so you do micro overhang adjustments there?
I can see the advantage theoretically in that approach. making tiny overhang adjustments while maintaining zenith adjustments with slots can be maddening.
I've never owned an SME arm but I seem to remember that.
nice pictures, btw.
I was wondering how Yip got his arc protractor right for the SME arm. Unfortunately it sounds like you need a different protractor for each cartridge unless the cartridge mounting hole to stylus tip are the same for each of your cartridges.
I had a Mint for a VPI Classic I used to have. It worked well. Hopefully Yip has specific instructions for the SME arm as it is a bit different than others.
I personally like the Feickert alignment protractor as it will work on any arm and also measure pivot to spindle distance as well. It is more accurate if it has a recess above the pivot point for the pin to drop into though. The Mint is nice because of the mirrored surface that allows you to correct for parallax error when adjusting zenith. I like to adjust zenith by ear anyway because the stylus may not be mounted to the cantilever perfectly square in many cases.
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