Who is the best reviewer?

Gregadd · Jun 10, 2011

Steve Williams said:
i'm just trying to understand how the last 5-6 posts come even close to being on topic. Could we please stick to the topic of the OP

I would be happy to have all the related posts deleted.

Jeff Fritz · Jun 10, 2011

Steve Williams said:
i'm just trying to understand how the last 5-6 posts come even close to being on topic. Could we please stick to the topic of the OP

Sorry Steve. Unless someone has a specific question for me, I'll back out of this one.

MylesBAstor · Jun 10, 2011

Alan Sircom said:
Price is not an indicator of quality, but neither is it an inhibitor of quality. There is no reason why a big-ticket item need automatically be catering for a market of well-heeled magpies. That a pair of amps cost more than a Porsche Panamera Turbo S might border on insanity to most people doesn't alter the fact that the DarTZeel NHB-458 monoblocks are the most dynamic solid-state power amplifiers I know of. Sadly, it's just as easy to lose that detail due to sticker shock as it is to be blown away by an expensive product, simply because it's expensive.

I look at it like major league baseball. The stats show that a team has to spend 70 million a year to be competitive. Same for high end audio. Need to invest in the parts and they aren't always cheap. But parts can't make up for a bad design.

Alan Sircom · Jun 10, 2011

Steve Williams said:
i'm just trying to understand how the last 5-6 posts come even close to being on topic. Could we please stick to the topic of the OP

Agreed. Sorry!

KeithR · Jun 10, 2011

Alan Sircom said:
No.

If you extend the Ferrari analogy, what's happened to audio in recent years is that there are a heck of a lot more F70s these days. If you judge things purely by comparing the top of the ranges, yes there are more ranges playing in the top tier today. That is a function of the huge change in the global audio market.

In fact, if you look beyond Ferrari and look at the supercar market over the last two decades or so, there are a lot more cars costing $200,000 and above now. And 'above' is now a lot more 'above' than it was. But it's worth bearing in mind that the existence of seven-figure Bugatti Veyrons have little bearing on the price of a Town Car.

In audio, there is also a healthy bunch of better-than-ever products that still keep the audio world going for the rank and file audiophiles. Rather than bemoaning that Balabo or Soulution and the like have added a new layer of super-expensive products, think how close something like a C-J ET5 ($9,500) gets to an original ART ($19,000 in today's money, adjusted for inflation) and how much better the $20,000 GAT is above that 2001 product.

OK, so there's that sinking feeling that audiophiles get when they realize the best is beyond them. But the second-tier products today are excellent. They always have been.

Disagree. All three products i highlighted were the new "elite echelon" products of yesteryear and 50% higher than there competitors at that respective time (the CJ was in HP's "best sound period" at the HE NYC show years ago). The elite echelon has gotten even more ridiculous, for what can't be argued as the same performance increase from a California to an Enzo

What's happened is manufacturers would rather sell one pair of 200k speakers than invest in 10k speakers. VAC doesn't offer a single product under 10k now---a single one!

The other thing is every other "technology" has decreased in price over the past decade, but for some reason high end audio has multiplied in price---see 70k DAC example in this thread. Name the last quantum technology leap in SS amps over the past decade---there isn't one (i'm excluding digital, which i don't consider SS).

KeithR

ps the CJ ET5 doesn't have near the appearance/build quality of an ARC Ref2 a decade ago. its an ugly duckling as well, but i digress.

Alan Sircom · Jun 10, 2011

I think this might be better broken out into its own thread...

Steve Williams · Jun 10, 2011

Good idea

Feel free to start it Alan

FrantzM · Jun 10, 2011

Hi

It seems strange to me that so many reviewers almost refuse to admit the fact that the rise of price in High End Audio is an application of Marketing, it has no bearing to the Cost of Good Sold ... Reviewers know it, yet sidestep it often reverting to "research and development" aspect of the product. Many audiophiles would lke to think that the High End Audio scene is all nice and populated by ethical people in its entirety ... Such views are for the least naive, very far form the truth.
I will leave it at that .. Politeness runs strong in this forum, although some nonsenses should be exposed once in a while I am on the side of keeping it civil but would have like some to be less fanboy of the high price tactics of High End Audio but rather to lean toward truthfulness. I would have liked the fanboys to also find better explanations than those they have so far presented. These are as close to disingenuous as it is possible.

Randall Smith · Jun 10, 2011

FrantzM said:
Hi

It seems strange to me that so many reviewers almost refuse to admit the fact that the rise of price in High End Audio is an application of Marketing, it has no bearing to the Cost of Good Sold ... Reviewers know it, yet sidestep it often reverting to "research and development" aspect of the product. Many audiophiles would lke to think that the High End Audio scene is all nice and populated by ethical people in its entirety ... Such views is for the least naive, very far form the truth.
I will leave it at that .. Politeness runs strong in this forum, although some nonsenses should be exposed once in a while I am on the side of keeping it civil but would have like some to be less fanboy of the high price tactics of High End Audio but rather to lean toward truthfulness. I would have liked the fanboys to also find better explanations than those they have so far presented. These are as close to disingenuous as it is possible.

I agree, a 70k DAC is insane! I also think speakers that cost more and cannot match or better the Revels Jeff mentioned should be called out. The Revels may not be to everyone's taste, but they do everything really well and they are priced fairly compared to other flagship speakers.

Alan Sircom · Jun 10, 2011

Off topic stuff now here: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?3512-Price-Value-Worth-and-COGS

microstrip · Jun 10, 2011

Randall Smith said:
I agree, a 70k DAC is insane! I also think speakers that cost more and cannot match or better the Revels Jeff mentioned should be called out. The Revels may not be to everyone's taste, but they do everything really well and they are priced fairly compared to other flagship speakers.

I hope your comment is not one of those off topic

, so I answer to it.

Could you explain why you consider that a 70k DAC is insane? Will a 50k DAC or a 25k DAC also be insane? Do you consider there is a limit to DAC performance?

I disagree strongly with the Revel quantum threshold - you accept that they are not everyone taste. How can you establish a benchmark with a speaker that many people do not appreciate? What do you consider "they do everything really well"?

kach22i · Jun 13, 2011

The best reviewer is the one which tells the truth.

Keeping it simple.

microstrip · Jun 13, 2011

kach22i said:
The best reviewer is the one which tells the truth.

Keeping it simple.

Perhaps not for all of us. Guess whom I am anticipating:

"You Can't Handle The Truth" (from a well know movie).

audioguy · Jun 14, 2011

kach22i said:
The best reviewer is the one which tells the truth.

Keeping it simple.

Whose truth?

Everyone has different biases and ears. How many reviewers actually attend often and regularly live and un-amplified music performances. And what are they comparing the recorded music to: a live performance they did not attend or a master tape that they do not know what it is supposed to sound like?

Here is a quote from Stephen Mejias of Stereophile:"So my strategy for evaluating hi-fi has less to do with measurements and sound and certainly less to do with some ideal absolute, than it does with ragged, messy emotion"

THAT I can deal with!!

Phelonious Ponk · Jun 14, 2011

MylesBAstor said:
I look at it like major league baseball. The stats show that a team has to spend 70 million a year to be competitive. Same for high end audio. Need to invest in the parts and they aren't always cheap. But parts can't make up for a bad design.

I agree. Though I suspect we disagree strongly on what is "competitive" and what you have to spend to get there. Thus the old argument rages on...

Tim

Phelonious Ponk · Jun 14, 2011

Here is a quote from Stephen Mejias of Stereophile:"So my strategy for evaluating hi-fi has less to do with measurements and sound and certainly less to do with some ideal absolute, than it does with ragged, messy emotion"

THAT I can deal with!!

I can certainly appreciate it, but I don't know how to deal with it. Without standards, what can possibly be learned from a review beyond one man's opinion? If we only read them for their entertainment value and put no real weight in them at all, ragged, messy emotion is not only fine, it is fun. If we expect anything more from the critical audiophile press, anything at all, they need to give us more than this. They need some standards upon which the things they are reviewing are being judged.

Tim

audioguy · Jun 14, 2011

Without standards, what can possibly be learned from a review beyond one man's opinion?

Tim

Tim: That is all you are getting anyway. Because even with standards (whatever they might be) the reviewer is telling you, in his opinion, how the piece being evaluated compares to that standard. If that were NOT the case, then EVERYONE would like the same equipment.

Once you get away from JUST measurements, opinion is what you get.

And by the way, entertainment value is the only reason I read most (not all) reviews.

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Who is the best reviewer?

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