Seismion - new active isolation platform from Germany
- Thread starter TLi
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As I mentioned before, engineer thinks differently. When speakers are placed higher, usually bass is reduced.
May I suggest that Seismion makes metal stand which is just slightly higher than Altas, find a way to slide the metal stand under the speaker when Altas is off, so the speaker is not standing on Altas.
This can be done fairly easily. There are devices that can lift the speaker up a little. Then it will come very close an idea situation in demonstrating the effect of active isolation on speaker.
May I suggest that Seismion makes metal stand which is just slightly higher than Altas, find a way to slide the metal stand under the speaker when Altas is off, so the speaker is not standing on Altas.
This can be done fairly easily. There are devices that can lift the speaker up a little. Then it will come very close an idea situation in demonstrating the effect of active isolation on speaker.
I can fully confirm what Mike Lavigne answered to this. In fact, most of the vibrations in building is actually below 4 Hz. The following diagram is a measurement straight out of our lab, which is located on the base floor and has a very solid foundation. We use such measurements to check the performance of the isolators, which are placed on a solid optical table.The figure shows the spectra of one sensor on a solid optical table (below the isolator), and another sensor on top of the isolator. Both in vertical and horizontal direction, which makes 4 signals in total. If we take the black curve (vertical spectrum (in µm/s) on the optical table) you can see the highest amplitude is around 2 Hz, and then decreasing. Additional to this shape, the horizontal sensor (magenta) shows a distinct resonance of the optical table around 18 Hz. Apart from this, the floor would also have the maximum amplitudes below 4 Hz.First of all, you should ask yourself what vibrates below 4 Hz in your house. The only thing that comes to mind is tectonic earth movements. I think when that happens, you have other problems and you don't listen to music. Joke.
I have been using the air spring solution for 13 years. OK, you have to refill the air every 4 weeks. But that is the only negative aspect for me, still the best buy i ever done.
In this graph you can already see the two sensors on top of the isolator (blue and red) have an increasing gap to the spectra of the ground. Already at 1 Hz there is more than -10 dB reduction in vertical direction, and reaching -40 dB in the audible range.
These vibrations are already on a low level, and due to the isolation, the sensor on the top-plate even reaches its noise floor around 20 Hz and above. (This is just the external sensors that we use for measuring it, not the internal sensors of the isolator). Somewhere higher in this thread I showed a measurement from Accurion, which claim they measure it with an amplitude of 100 µm/s, which is roughly 100 times larger amplitudes than we have in this measurement.
I have checked a few other publications about building vibrations. Here is a graph from the source "Seismic performance assessment of reinforced concrete structures with masonry infilled panels: the case of block #22 of the Santa Maria hospital in Lisbon, ISET, Proence et al, 2004."
You see in a multi-storey building the resonances around 2 Hz are even much more emphasized.
If you then use a passive isolator with a resonance of let's say 3 Hz, they even enlarge these peaks further.
TLi, that is exactly what our plan is. Maybe mtemur got the idea totally wrong, the wedges will not be under or over the isolators, but in the gaps between them. They will then basically lift the whole platform maybe 1 mm or less. The isolation feet (the 4 while boxes) will not have any contact to the platform at all, they could be even removed from the system.
Good to see that you agree, this will come very close to the ideal situation.
Well, I’m an engineer too and engineering approach requires comparing speakers standing on their feet over the ground versus over seismion. Not seismion versus other metal stand etc.
At best situation speakers should be placed over seismion with their feet removed and ideally bolted to top platform and compared to other pair standing on their feet. That’s the real engineering approach. Removing feet also overcome height differences between two pairs.
If you like the result with seismion you can remove the feet and bottom plate (if there is a bottom plate) of speakers and place them over seismion with minor change in height.
just observe any seismograph read out. anywhere. it's never a straight line. always a squiggle. and that is your 'ideal/best case' resting building noise floor without active. sometimes it's much worse depending on other variables (music feedback, appliances, HVAC, traffic, surf, airplanes, etc) real life live music never has that signature. and that resonance noise floor distortion, something other than music, locates the sound in the driver as non musical noise; when it's mostly removed, the music is released from the driver and it's more natural and real.
really quite a simple concept.
easy to hear. the best passive get's close, but never 'quite' in the realm of active.
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I didn’t get it wrong. Speakers standing over a platform and wedges under that platform will never sound close to speakers standing over the ground. I recommend everyone to try that.
Small things compared to that like changing spike bases or placing thin wood under spike bases hugely affects the sound.
In order to talk about improvement with the use of your product you should start with the stock form and that stock form is speakers standing on their feet over the ground. Not over a platform and wedges.
Thanks for your constructive remarks, mtemur, and enjoying a fruitful discussion! Certainly there will be ways to improve the A/B comparison even more. But for the moment our main focus is to get the Atlas system work as perfectly as possible, and not to make the A/B comparison as realistic as possible (for now). It is always the case when dealing with limited resources and time... Also, I guess the situation on an exhibition is anyway hard to compare with what the audiophiles have at home. The whole acoustics is a challenge, and the floor might be shaking much more.
I guess optimizing the final performance of the Atlas would also be the ultimate goal for the potential audiophile users of it. Because if the result is really improved, why should they then switch back to the original conditions.
Original conditions are speakers standing on their feet over the ground. How would anybody know what the original conditions sound like when you neglect them in your demonstration and do the comparison with speakers over a platform and wedge?
Do you think a show is a place to make a critical assessment. Or more a place to see new stuff and decide if you want to pursue it further.
We just want to know the effect of active isolation on speaker. How the user installs and config his system is another matter.
The best configuration may be what Mike has suggested, dig a hole on the floor to place the isolator underground with the top plate at floor level.
What Seismion is trying to do in the show is good enough for us to know what they intend to demonstrate. I look forwards to hearing it.
No, the best solution is what I explained before. Remove the feet and bottom plate of speakers and place them over seismion. If seismion is so effective on eliminating vibration why in the world would anybody keep feet under speakers? If you still want to dig a hole on the floor it's ok.
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Here you can see what's going on in Germany live seismograph.
Live Seismogramme
www.geo.uni-hamburg.de
As a consumer you don't have to make critical assessment but that doesn't mean you deserve to be fooled by naturally flawed comparison. As a customer you shouldn't accept that when there are ways to do the right comparison.
Dear @Seismion If it's not possible to get two pairs of speakers you can always try it with one pair.
In order to do that speakers should be placed at center next to each other. One is on it's feet over the ground and the other over seismion. You should play a mono track and using balance knob you can demonstrate differences easily. But it's still better to get two pairs for evaluations sake.
In order to do that speakers should be placed at center next to each other. One is on it's feet over the ground and the other over seismion. You should play a mono track and using balance knob you can demonstrate differences easily. But it's still better to get two pairs for evaluations sake.
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That's a very good idea, thanks! We will figure out which of them we can implement during or before the exhibition. It is never our intention to fool people by wrong comparisons. Let's rather look forward, maybe this implementation of active stabilization really has a big potential.
That’s very interesting! (although I’ll probably not be able to afford it and would need it no thicker than 2 inches to keep speaker height )
I use Isoacoustics Gaia (which try to do part of it passively) under the subwoofer with great success in bass control. Under speakers they have similar and more effects, but certainly also changing the mids tonality a bit. As someone else mentioned here, most speakers are probably not voiced for optimal resonance control.
You seem to have very good products and care a lot and your patience with partly being told you’re wrong in most anything you do is admirable . Nice that you are contributing with details here as a manufacturer.
I believe that would sound, not good for the speaker manufacturer. I would tell you no way. Take your platform somewhere else.
You have a point. Playing a mono track with one speaker is perfectly normal but speaker company can be sensitive about that. If I were them I would be more sensitive and solemnly concerned about my speakers being demoed sitting on a metal plate with wedges underneath.
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Thanks for your words! In fact, if you try something new, you can hardly expect everybody agreeing. But to be fair, I understand the discussion is now mainly about how to make a perfect A/B comparison, and not about the main idea, to have an active stabilizer underneath the speakers. And so far, this discussion is rather fruitful, and also helps us learn about the concerns that some might have.
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