Which is Better Sound From High Power: Single Tube SET or Parallel Tube SET?

[andromedaaudio]

Only if it's connected to your gear with a $2k cable.

I m listening now , how much time before the effect comes in ?

 

[Tubesornot]

Not true. The internal grounding scheme isn’t going to change the fact that these are all tuned antennas.

Welcome to the forum, Tubesornot. We have removed the content of your post because it is against our TOS, which can be found here >>> https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/terms-of-service.1207/

Please focus on the topic being discussed, rather than the person discussing it.

Tom

 

[Argonaut]

Hello gents,

I can’t nor will I try to offer any attempt at answering the question directly, as I’ve never compared a SET of a certain wattage with that of a PSET of the same wattage, given the variables between the two are too great.

I can say this:

I have never liked big bottle tubes, including the 805, 845, 211, GM70 and 833 - at least not in any of the implementations I heard them.

I have also never liked PSETs using any tube (big or small), or push-pull amps for that matter (unless we’re talking guitar amps).

So despite a well-entrenched bias against big bottle tubes and parallel circuits in general, and a growing conviction that no big bottle amp or parallel topology would ever meet my criteria for ownership, that all changed when I heard an amp that used a tube that was new to me, the RCA 813, a big bottle tube of which two were used in parallel, driven by a single RCA 814. That amp is now my favourite by far.

That’s not to say I’ve changed my mind about big bottles or parallel circuits in general. Just that single variables in isolation usually tell us nothing about how those variables react and interact when brought together. Again, implementation trumps topology, and topology trumps parts selection, at least in my experience.

Best,

853guy

I concur that Big Bottle amplification can be done exceptionally well indeed.

 

[Argonaut]

Hi LL21,

I’ve shared my experiences with the Aries Cerat gear in previous posts. However, I’ve only heard the Concero in the context of an all Aries Cerat system, and twice with the Symphonia, so please take that into account for whatever it’s worth. And rather than repeat my impressions and divert this thread from its intended course, feel free to have a look at these posts here (Warning: Verbosity of a highly subjective nature. Reading may induce narcolepsy.)...

Private Brussels Audition

High End Munich 2017

High End Brussels 2016

Hope that helps!

Best,

853guy

I somehow missed this first time around , a most interesting and comprehensive read thank you 853guy.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I somehow missed this first time around , a most interesting and comprehensive read thank you 853guy.

Yes, indeed! Really a lot of great comparative impressions early on in this thread!

 

[Ron Resnick]

I have never liked big bottle tubes, including the 805, 845, 211, GM70 and 833 - at least not in any of the implementations I heard them.

I have also never liked PSETs using any tube (big or small), or push-pull amps for that matter (unless we’re talking guitar amps).

Hi 853guy,

Can you give us some insight in terms of sonic impressions underlying these views?

Is it largely a matter that low wattage power tubes like 2A3 and 300B simply sound more pure to you?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Since this thread was active in 2018, thanks largely to 213cobra, I have heard a variety of SETs and PSETs in the 5 to 18 watt range. I think I've come to the conclusion that SET versus push-pull can have materially different sonic characteristics even at the same power output in watts.

In the big bottle department I pine for the Trafomatic Drina! I'm considering a GoFundMe page for Drinas.

 

[bonzo75]

Since this thread was active in 2018, thanks largely to 213cobra, I have heard a variety of SETs and PSETs in the 5 to 18 watt range. I think I've come to the conclusion that SET versus push-pull can have materially different sonic characteristics even at the same power output in watts.

In the big bottle department I pine for the Trafomatic Drina! I'm considering a GoFundMe page for Drinas.

5 - 18w is meaningless without context of speakers

 

[PeterA]

5 - 18w is meaningless without context of speakers

ddk asked Vladimir Lamm to suggest a great speaker match for his ML2 amps. His response: early version Vitavox CN-191.

 

[morricab]

Since this thread was active in 2018, thanks largely to 213cobra, I have heard a variety of SETs and PSETs in the 5 to 18 watt range. I think I've come to the conclusion that SET versus push-pull can have materially different sonic characteristics even at the same power output in watts.

In the big bottle department I pine for the Trafomatic Drina! I'm considering a GoFundMe page for Drinas.

Hi Ron,
Yes, and the spectrum of distortion is fundamentally different because Push/pull tends to cancel even order harmonics and a properly done SET has all orders but in an exponentially decreasing amount as the order goes up. Push/pull, especially if it employs negative feedback, will generate new higher order harmonics even as it reduces the even and low odd order ones.

 

[Keith_W]

Since this thread was active in 2018, thanks largely to 213cobra, I have heard a variety of SETs and PSETs in the 5 to 18 watt range. I think I've come to the conclusion that SET versus push-pull can have materially different sonic characteristics even at the same power output in watts.

In the big bottle department I pine for the Trafomatic Drina! I'm considering a GoFundMe page for Drinas.

I have owned a SET, and I now have a push-pull triode. My SET was a Cary CAD-805AE. It had a 6SN7 input stage, 300B intermediate stage, and 845 output stage. Cary claimed it made 50W. This is a picture of the amp:



My current amplifier is a Cary CAD-211AE. It is essentially two CAD-805AE SET's but arranged in a push-pull configuration. So: two 300B's, and two 845's. This is what it looks like:



For a while, I had a crazy bi-amp setup with all four monoblocks in the system. It was quite a sight to behold:



Anyway, I should get to the point of my post.

A few years ago, my CAD-211AE developed a problem where it would regularly blow up those expensive 845's, which meant many trips to my audio engineer for repairs. During one visit, we had a conversation which went like this:

Me: "Looks like I have to buy another pair of matched 845's".
Him: "I have never seen a so-called matched pair measure the same on my tube tester."
Me: "Really? Why not?"
Him: "Because of manufacturing tolerances. Tubes are expensive to produce, and by their very nature they are subject to a lot of variability. There is variability within one manufacturer due to how much tolerance they apply before junking the tube. There is variability between manufacturers due to different interpretations of the published specification of the tube, and different standards of tolerance".
Me: "What is a good tube then?"
Him: "One that works with your amplifier. The person who designed your amplifier did it with an idealized version of the tube he had in mind. Some tube manufacturers may produce tubes that are out of spec for your amplifier, but your particular amplifier is able to compensate for it. Do not buy expensive tubes, because the only thing that matters is whether they work with your amp."
Me: "Hmm, if matched pairs of tubes are not the same, then why would anybody design a push-pull amplifier if they know that the push and pull parts of the amplifier might be populated by tubes which do not perform the same?"
Him: "They design amps like yours because of a commercial imperative. There was a need in the market for a powerful triode amplifier, and the only way to get that is to make it push-pull. There are limitations to such an approach, but that's what engineers do. We recognize that the pull stage might output a different voltage to the push stage, so we design around that".
Me: "Does this mean that a SET is a superior design to a push-pull triode?"
Him: "Better in the sense that it does not have the same compromise of mismatched tubes. But worse in terms of power output, which ultimately is more important. Would you rather have a push-pull amplifier with compromises you can design around, or would you rather have a lower powered amp that clips when you ask it to drive a speaker?".

 

[Alrainbow]

A brief explanation of the three types most used
push pull has to me a lesser complete sound in how distortion changes in the way we use tubes a parallel set is real set in sound
Yet as we add more tubes it also changes it’s distortion pattern
but Kedar made a very profound statement in what speaker is used
as an example the large vac amps in mono to me are fast like SS yet have tube magic
They can be ran i Think in both parallel and push pull fully balanced. That’s a lot to keep track and of for a tube amp.

https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Radio/30s/Radio-1934-12.pdf

 

[morricab]

A brief explanation of the three types most used
push pull has to me a lesser complete sound in how distortion changes in the way we use tubes a parallel set is real set in sound
Yet as we add more tubes it also changes it’s distortion pattern
but Kedar made a very profound statement in what speaker is used
as an example the large vac amps in mono to me are fast like SS yet have tube magic
They can be ran i Think in both parallel and push pull fully balanced. That’s a lot to keep track and of for a tube amp.

https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Radio/30s/Radio-1934-12.pdf

No, they are only push pull.

 

[flm09]

Hey guys,

For say a 211 or 845 SET which is a better brand to seek out NAF or Tektron?

Thanks!

 

[bonzo75]

Hey guys,

For say a 211 or 845 SET which is a better brand to seek out NAF or Tektron?

Thanks!

NAF is way superior to Tektron. Tektron was very good value though not sure if pricing has changed

 

[gestalt]

Hey guys,

For say a 211 or 845 SET which is a better brand to seek out NAF or Tektron?

Thanks!

These two amps are built to different quality levels and are in different budget classes as a result. What properties are important to you personally?

Industry disclosure: I'm a NAF dealer.

 

[flm09]

These two amps are built to different quality levels and are in different budget classes as a result. What properties are important to you personally?

Industry disclosure: I'm a NAF dealer.

Thank you for your feedback! Something that can turn a good digital recording into music in my room. Since you represent NAF do you have any pics of the inside build so I can see worth double the price. My other choices are Jadis i300 or AN Meishu Tonmeister but I want to get away from 300b into 211 or 845.

 

[morricab]

Hey guys,

For say a 211 or 845 SET which is a better brand to seek out NAF or Tektron?

Thanks!

NAF is good

 

[flm09]

NAF is good

Ok thanks Morricab!

 

[adrianywu]

ddk asked Vladimir Lamm to suggest a great speaker match for his ML2 amps. His response: early version Vitavox CN-191.

Interesting. I am part owner of a Living Voice VOX Olympian system with the bass horns. We mainly use Kondo electronics, but we did use a pair of Lamm ML3 Signature monoblocks to drive them for a while, on loan from the distributor. I must say that I prefer the Lamm to any of the Kondo amps we have used. Somehow, the ML3 does not sound like typical tube or transistor amps, they are very neutral, dynamic and the bass has power and definition. They have less coloration but sound even more musical than the Kondos. The VOX uses the same midrange driver as the Vitavox CN-191.