"Synergy"

[Phelonious Ponk]

I think this statement with reference to distortion needs to be clarified because it’s nonsensical and laughable as written. The way the sentence is written, you are saying a 3 watt single-ended amplifier has a lack of distortion that no mid or high powered amp can even think about which is just crazy. The opposite is in fact true. No single-ended 3 watt amp could dream of having the distortion figures of a medium to high powered amp. In reality, no single-ended 3 watt amp could dream of having the distortion of pretty much any SS amp regardless of its power output.

Now if you are using the word *distortion* to convey the perceived purity of the 3 watt amp and how it’s revealing information that the mid to high power amp could only dream of so therefore it must be some sort of distortion in the bigger amps that’s blurring the purity that you hear with the 3 watt amp, that’s a whole nother food fight. And I suspect that is what you meant, but of course I could be wrong.

Mark, you'll notice he didn't say distortion figures. Who's got that popcorn?

Tim

 

[fas42]

This thread just reminds me again how most audiphiles live in a glorious paradox: they insist that distortion is not relevant to sound, is inaudible as far as they're concerned, point to serious attempts at measuring to "prove" that the component doesn't have distortion, pooh pooh efforts to focus attention on that as a major issue; yet, dance a merry dance of mix 'n' match of components to get the perfect blending of distortion, a satisfying stew of incorrect behaviour, to create their ideal soundscape. And spend vast sums of money to do it ...

And everyone else says, you're all crazy!!!

Frank

 

[fas42]

I think this statement with reference to distortion needs to be clarified because it’s nonsensical and laughable as written. The way the sentence is written, you are saying a 3 watt single-ended amplifier has a lack of distortion that no mid or high powered amp can even think about which is just crazy. The opposite is in fact true.

I would beg to differ. This is in the camp of the "first watt is the most important", and what most measurements are about is telling you is how the amplifier behaves when, to use the good ol' car analogy, the foot is flat to the floor: maximum speed, greatest acceleration. Well, strangely enough, most people don't drive their cars like that all the time, and they also don't run their audio systems that way.

No, what concerns people is how a car, or audio systems, behaves in a very low stress, almost idling, state, this is where those fabulous "microdynamics", that people get all gooey about, climb on board. And there is every chance that a low powered amp that's been engineered to get that right, will do a much better job that a high powered unit ...

Frank

 

[amirm]

--- Amir said
"Why wouldn't he [amp designer] find the pairing and tell us and have us follow? "

I suspect that the treasure hunt is central to the audiophile experience for some people. Dealers provide advice on synergy as part of their value added.

Ah the dealer. His #1 priority is food on the table for his children. This means you are not going to see a Pioneer AVR paired up with that Wilson speaker . So let's leave him out, present company excluded of course.

As to manufacturer, I meant the speaker, not amplifier. In my analysis of this, I am trying to get the amp difference out of the way and see if what is left, makes logical sense.

What percentage of these speakers sound good with an ideal, perfect amplifier vs one not being so? 100%? 80%?

 

[Old Listener]

Your library system wins my personal award for most interesting audio system on WBF. Boy, would I love to hear that.

Well, I went active before it became fashionable. ( ~ 1998)

Pictures:

http://naturelover.smugmug.com/gallery/20120949_Brp8c8#1588155766_spgj64q

Bill

 

[fas42]

What percentage of these speakers sound good with an ideal, perfect amplifier vs one not being so? 100%? 80%?

100%, assuming someone has sorted out some of the silly problems many speakers have ...

Frank

 

[microstrip]

I must have misunderstood your point, Micro. I thought you were saying that a preamp and amp of the same brand should sound good together. That I would consider competency, not synergy. Krell/ML don't sound good together? I'd say one or both just don't play well with others. No really good reason for it, though.

Tim

Tim,

Sorry, but may be we are referring to the same thing with different names. How do you check for competency? What are the technical and subjective parameters you associate with competency?

Synergy (or lack of it in this example) for me is currently typified by the last sentence in your comment " No really good reason for it, though."

 

[fas42]

There seems to be a terrible difficulty using the word "distortion" here. And it's not such an awful term: it simply means that the output is not an exact copy of the input, amplified or attentuated by some amount, or converted from one form to another, like electrical to acoustic energy. "Synergy" and "competency" are just ways of hanging onto this unpleasant "snake" without actually saying that that is what you're doing ...

Frank

 

[LL21]

Hi Frank...i am not sure that is true. one component could flawlessly perform on its own...but have the inability to be compatible with an equally flawless performer on a test bench.

Take an extreme example...an xlr only component with a SE only component. They cannot connect at all so there is 100% "anti-synergy". On a more realistic case, i understand that impedance mismatches between components (600ohm output of preamp) and a low input impedance of an amp...could result in 2 perfectly respectable pieces of equipment not interacting well. Then on a more refined case, i have to imagine there are equal elements on a very subtle basis which either work "fine together"...but as with many components designed to interact well by the original manufacturer...there are elements which work extremely well together (the particular transport and DAC by same maker)...or preamp and amp.

Isn't that synergy without necessarily having distortion in either unit on a test bench basis?

 

[amirm]

In computers, we have a saying that goes along the lines of "bug for bug compatible." For example, if you are writing a new browser today, you may have to act in a broken way to be compatible with all the bugs in sites that happen to work with IE, but shouldn't. Are we saying Synergy is that? That the speaker is broken somehow but to have it perform regardless, we have to hook up an equally broken counterpoint (amp) for it to work????

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim,

Sorry, but may be we are referring to the same thing with different names. How do you check for competency? What are the technical and subjective parameters you associate with competency?

Synergy (or lack of it in this example) for me is currently typified by the last sentence in your comment " No really good reason for it, though."

No need to overthink this one, I was just saying that a manufacturer whose own pre and amp didn't sound good together probably has some issues.

Tim

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I think this statement with reference to distortion needs to be clarified because it’s nonsensical and laughable as written. The way the sentence is written, you are saying a 3 watt single-ended amplifier has a lack of distortion that no mid or high powered amp can even think about which is just crazy. The opposite is in fact true. No single-ended 3 watt amp could dream of having the distortion figures of a medium to high powered amp. In reality, no single-ended 3 watt amp could dream of having the distortion of pretty much any SS amp regardless of its power output.

Now if you are using the word *distortion* to convey the perceived purity of the 3 watt amp and how it’s revealing information that the mid to high power amp could only dream of so therefore it must be some sort of distortion in the bigger amps that’s blurring the purity that you hear with the 3 watt amp, that’s a whole nother food fight. And I suspect that is what you meant, but of course I could be wrong.

i mean exactly what i wrote. and i never wrote...."distortion figures"...that term means nothing to me.

i've had the $135k dart monoblocks in my system. as natural sounding (or more so) as any high powered amp as i have heard. i've heard lots of other amplifiers too. none are able to be as pure sounding as the 2a3 operating within it's performance envelope. technically, a vacuum is more linear than a bunch of sand, especially when it is optimally presented as far as minimal parts count, point to point wired, every part optimized, needing to power limited bandwidth.

absolutely more linear sounding.

even compared to my dart stereo amp, which is a standard setter for low noise and detail, the 2a3 is quite a bit less distorted, more detailed, lower noise, and faster.

as far as energy and dynamic grip that's a whole different ballgame and the 2a3 is not competitive.

 

[LL21]

In computers, we have a saying that goes along the lines of "bug for bug compatible." For example, if you are writing a new browser today, you may have to act in a broken way to be compatible with all the bugs in sites that happen to work with IE, but shouldn't. Are we saying Synergy is that? That the speaker is broken somehow but to have it perform regardless, we have to hook up an equally broken counterpoint (amp) for it to work????

While i suppose one could try to make that work...i am personally not suggesting that. I am simply saying a perfectly good preamp with a 600ohm output impedance may not work well with an equally functional amp that has a very low input impedance. Neither is 'wrong' or causing distortion in an of itself...but put together they may not interact well. Or take a perfectly good mid-powered amp into a 105db sensitive speaker with a flat 8ohm load...no problem. Stick that same amp with an old Electrostatic with a 1-ohm load, and you distort like crazy...is the amp "terrible"?...or is there just poor synergy between the 2 components. I would say the latter and use 'synergy' in regards to the interactions here.

That's the reserve of situations where 2 components not only work "fine" together...but their particular components actually work very well together (as in the case of many manufacturers who go to lengths to ensure their pre/amp combos are as ideally suited for each other as possible). That, to me, is the area of creating systems which would involve synergy. For those of us (like me) who are not technical at all...we might find certain components sound better together (and not understand why)...while the scientists would have the technical explanation. either way, there is a place for synergy in evaluating and building systems.

 

[microstrip]

For those of us (like me) who are not technical at all...we might find certain components sound better together (and not understand why)...while the scientists would have the technical explanation. either way, there is a place for synergy in evaluating and building systems.

Unhappily, it is not only for you am me. If the scientists have a technical explanation they keep it for themselves. Almost all of us accept that the same brand preamplifier and amplifier should play well together, but most of the times can not explain technically why they usually sound better than mixing brands.

 

[LL21]

Hi Microstrip,

Two things:

1. If a manufacturer uses the same wire in both pre and amp...conductivity levels will be more similar, etc...that must effectively be part of the synergy.

2. Whether it is medicine, engineering or science...there comes a point when even the most technically astute experts will say "i dont know why it happens...it just does." Lew Johnson was actually quoted saying this when discussing their preference for teflon capacitors for a review, and talking about why certain things happen with them that they cannot explain.

 

[LL21]

Hi Microstrip,

Two things:

1. If a manufacturer uses the same wire in both pre and amp...conductivity levels will be more similar, etc...that must effectively be part of the synergy.

2. Whether it is medicine, engineering or science...there comes a point when even the most technically astute experts will say "i dont know why it happens...it just does." Lew Johnson was actually quoted saying this when discussing their preference for teflon capacitors for a review, and talking about why certain things happen with them that they cannot explain.

Of course, there are also manufacturers who purposely disguise where they create their 'synergy'. Without naming names, i spoke with a friend who manufactures cable...and he discovered why a particular manufacturers power cables always seemed to have 'magical synergy' with their amps...and no after-mkt cables seemed to do as well. The manufacturer removed the ground and reversed phasing or something inside the unit on purpose so that no after-market power cable would sound as good. (To prove his point, he did the same with a set of his powercables, brought them to a demo of the amp, and nearly half of the 10 people who owned the amp and attended the demo ordered his power cable that day.)

 

[fas42]

Unhappily, it is not only for you am me. If the scientists have a technical explanation they keep it for themselves. Almost all of us accept that the same brand preamplifier and amplifier should play well together, but most of the times can not explain technically why they usually sound better than mixing brands.

Technically, it is extremely simple: a form of distortion is produced or not produced, which is audible, and probably quite irritating. When was the last time you saw a full set of measurements of a system, not just a component. I'm afraid the objectivists do believe in "magic", that is, if they take a whole set of precise measurements of various audio gear, all in total isolation from each other, and separate from anything but test gear, that they will work precisely the same in an actual audio configuration as they did in that sterile testing setup: in your dreams, as we say down here!!

So, components in isolation, in a special testing "vaccuum" may not be "broken", but once hooked together to form a playback system in the real world they certainly can be ...

Frank

 

[fas42]

Without naming names, i spoke with a friend who manufactures cable...and he discovered why a particular manufacturers power cables always seemed to have 'magical synergy' with their amps...and no after-mkt cables seemed to do as well. The manufacturer removed the ground and reversed phasing or something inside the unit on purpose so that no after-market power cable would sound as good. (To prove his point, he did the same with a set of his powercables, brought them to a demo of the amp, and nearly half of the 10 people who owned the amp and attended the demo ordered his power cable that day.)

And doesn't that tell you everything! An audio system is one big electrical circuit, from the laser reading the cd, or needle vibrating in the groove, right through to the coil reacting to the magnet in the speaker. That whole thing has to be got right, as a single entity, worrying obsessively about one particular part working perfectly is pointless and useless in achieving the goal of good sound; everything, but everything, has to contribute to the goal of minimising distortion!

Frank

 

[mep]

i mean exactly what i wrote. and i never wrote...."distortion figures"...that term means nothing to me.

I didn’t quote you as saying “distortion figures.” That was my term for percent of distortion as in 1%, 2%, 3% etc. I think that the percentage of distortion an amp has means something to you in terms of understanding its meaning.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

absolutely more linear sounding.

I like that. Not necessarily more linear, but absolutely more linear-sounding. We've hit a whole new level.

Tim