Kedar, I commend you on your considerable efforts to put that report together. I also appreciate Tang's willingness to let you enter his office and take over his system as you did.
In general, I enjoyed the writing and information that you discovered, particularly the clarity with which you describe particular combinations and the resulting listening impressions. I always enjoy the photographs that accompany your reporting and the enthusiasm with which you take on these assignments. Your enjoyment comes through clearly.
More specifically, I very much appreciate your recognition of the importance of the whole VTA, VTF and set up procedure to the final results. As I read the report and started forming questions, I saw that you addressed by concerns later in the text. The variables of different phono stages and loading are such examples. Because of these variables, I found the direct comparisons between the four cartridges on the AS to be the most informative and useful. Aside from the different inputs, these were the most pure and direct comparisons. The many others were helpful but involved additional variables to make conclusions less clear.
I agree with Ron who said that Tang's system can be seen as a kind of laboratory for comparisons and experimentation. The comments about the VdH were very interesting and to me it speaks about David's deep understanding about his turntable and the 3012R that he now recommends that cartridge highly. You reached a similar conclusion.
I really like your conclusion #1 about the importance of VTA and VTF. To me, that sums up everything about your visit. Here is what you wrote:
However, I am a bit confused by this statement.
Finally, this conclusion is one that I have considered vital ever since I learned how adjusting an arm can have such a profound effect on the sound of an otherwise well sorted out system. You wrote:
Reading your report only strengthens what I have long suspected: we gather data points by reading about and listening to gear that may or may not be fully optimized, and then we pass judgement on poor data. From this, we may reach the wrong conclusions, as your days 1 and 2 may have reached. Assessing components and systems is a very tricky business. Thank you for sharing what you have learned along the way. This is a great report!
In general, I enjoyed the writing and information that you discovered, particularly the clarity with which you describe particular combinations and the resulting listening impressions. I always enjoy the photographs that accompany your reporting and the enthusiasm with which you take on these assignments. Your enjoyment comes through clearly.
More specifically, I very much appreciate your recognition of the importance of the whole VTA, VTF and set up procedure to the final results. As I read the report and started forming questions, I saw that you addressed by concerns later in the text. The variables of different phono stages and loading are such examples. Because of these variables, I found the direct comparisons between the four cartridges on the AS to be the most informative and useful. Aside from the different inputs, these were the most pure and direct comparisons. The many others were helpful but involved additional variables to make conclusions less clear.
I agree with Ron who said that Tang's system can be seen as a kind of laboratory for comparisons and experimentation. The comments about the VdH were very interesting and to me it speaks about David's deep understanding about his turntable and the 3012R that he now recommends that cartridge highly. You reached a similar conclusion.
I really like your conclusion #1 about the importance of VTA and VTF. To me, that sums up everything about your visit. Here is what you wrote:
Tang returned from his meetings. I asked him, “Did you change anything on the AS rack, like gain etc”? He said, “I tuned the carts. Adjusted the VTA and the VTF. Yesterday the tonearm guy Pisit had set it up, today I did it based on David’s instructions. He taught me to listen to a few things on certain LPs before set up, and I used those tricks to fine tune the carts”.
Wow! Just Wow! A tonearm guy comes in, sets things up using tools, and I have certain findings. Tang comes in, fine tunes based on David’s instructions, and the findings are reversed. I was both elated and disappointed. Elated that SME 3012r when well optimized has such a big difference that it injects energy, size, impact, naturalness, all together to sound better than the TTs set up with SAT and Axiom. Disappointed that any other SME 3012r compare data points not done under David’s instructions are null and void (ok there might be other experts but not easily with the luxury of comparing such arms next to the SME). So I can’t go out tomorrow and compare SME with Arm X elsewhere. Of course, one can argue if SAT and Axiom were as fine tuned, they could be better. That is for another time.
Tang mentioned that he would try to tune the AF1 and the EMT for the next day as they were not optimized either.
Wow! Just Wow! A tonearm guy comes in, sets things up using tools, and I have certain findings. Tang comes in, fine tunes based on David’s instructions, and the findings are reversed. I was both elated and disappointed. Elated that SME 3012r when well optimized has such a big difference that it injects energy, size, impact, naturalness, all together to sound better than the TTs set up with SAT and Axiom. Disappointed that any other SME 3012r compare data points not done under David’s instructions are null and void (ok there might be other experts but not easily with the luxury of comparing such arms next to the SME). So I can’t go out tomorrow and compare SME with Arm X elsewhere. Of course, one can argue if SAT and Axiom were as fine tuned, they could be better. That is for another time.
Tang mentioned that he would try to tune the AF1 and the EMT for the next day as they were not optimized either.
However, I am a bit confused by this statement.
In order to rule out advantages due to LP thickness and relative VTAs, I played the second movement, which goes through various individual instruments – violin, basoon, woodwinds, brass, etc – and the initial part is not a large full scale piece like the 4th movement, and found the EMT+GFS being the best here. Each instrument had more drive, bloom, and separation. Better tones, especially the basoon was so much better.
Could you please explain how listening to these specific instruments rules out the advantages due to LP thickness and relative VTAs? I also wonder if you could hear differences between hearing your original pressings like the fantastic Bach Viola de Gamba and harpsichord versus some thicker reissue. On the same arm/cartridge, would not the change in thickness or cutting angle possibly account for some of the difference is quality of sound?Finally, this conclusion is one that I have considered vital ever since I learned how adjusting an arm can have such a profound effect on the sound of an otherwise well sorted out system. You wrote:
I do not think tonearm compares are easily possible by one person. Ideally, you need an SME 3012r under David’s instructions, Durand under Mike Lavigne/Joel Durand’s guidance, a Schroeder LT set up by Anamighty Sound/Steve Dobbins/Frank himself, and some arms set up by a couple of guys in the UK like Mad Mik and Zerostargeneral. Tang’s Axiom has been personally set up by the designer Dietrich, who will be visiting him again to optimize his arm set up. A couple of veterans in the UK including GT Audio have mentioned that the M2 12r is a better arm. I heard the 3012r sing at Tang’s, in many ways over the SAT. I do not think the different people mentioned above are hearing that different, what I suspect is that each one has mastered his own skills for getting the best out of the respective arm, and you need to compare the arms only when fine tuned by those who advocate that particular arm.
I am fascinated by your comment in bold. Could you explain more? Anyway, I think the above observation is precisely why Ron told me the other day that one option he is now strongly considering having David set up an SME 3012R with one cartridge and Steve Dobbins set up a Schroder LT with a different cartridge on his AS2000. I would take it one step further. I would invite these two experts to do their thing, and I would try to learn as much as I could from them about their respective arms. I would then try to utilize what they teach me to optimize my arms going forward. As you learned so clearly, the improvement on days 3 and 4 were a direct result of Tang improving the set up based on what he learned from David. This led straight to your increased enjoyment of the system, and a greater appreciation of the differences between the various components.Reading your report only strengthens what I have long suspected: we gather data points by reading about and listening to gear that may or may not be fully optimized, and then we pass judgement on poor data. From this, we may reach the wrong conclusions, as your days 1 and 2 may have reached. Assessing components and systems is a very tricky business. Thank you for sharing what you have learned along the way. This is a great report!