ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

[ddk]

Steve, what are the stock tubes in the ML3? Usually and IME, most tube manufacturers settle on readily available inexpensive tubes from the standard Russian suppliers. The very same manufacturers then spout that these are the best tubes for their gear. This makes sense, since from their perspective it would not be good business to state that their stock tubes can be easily surpassed and since most NOS tubes are not that easy to source and at reasonable pricing. (Never mind condition etc.,)
However, I have NEVER heard any tube gear that couldn’t be improved by rolling in some great NOS tubes. I’m sure you got a nice upswing when you rolled in the Telefunken...question is what more is available with the other tubes.

The only tubes you can roll are the 12AX7s if desired, don't have a choice on the other ones, Lamm simplicity!

david

 

[ddk]

Can anyone think of an inherently bright tube amp..or tube preamp for that matter?

Don't want to go there in this thread, so many that sound very hifi with the worst possible mass market solid state characteristics.

david

 

[spiritofmusic]

I turned down the chance to buy Nat Audio SETs in 2013, feeling them to be too full blooded tonally, with what SEEMED a reticent treble. I went down the Audion SETs 845 route instead, initially preferring their “lighter” presentation.
But my thoughts were never far from the NATs, and I took the plunge w them in 2015.
And haven’t regretted the decision for a moment.
And living w them has shown me that the centre of gravity tonally may appear to have been lower than I was used to, but this was just the effect of their fully fleshed our presentation, and indeed there is no lack of treble info, it’s just not at the expense of the mids.

 

[gian60]

Congrats dear Mike

You will enjoy a lot.
I have a room that is around 80 sqm,my speaker is 97 db at 8 ohm and when i had before Kondo Souga,2A3 parallel single end with 8 watt,the power was enough for 80 % music i listen,
so yuo will not have power problems

 

[DaveyF]

The only tubes you can roll are the 12AX7s if desired, don't have a choice on the other ones, Lamm simplicity!

david

Interesting. What are the other tubes that cannot be rolled?

 

[DaveyF]

Don't want to go there in this thread, so many that sound very hifi with the worst possible mass market solid state characteristics.

david

Ok...all in your humble opinion...yes?

 

[ddk]

Ok...all in your humble opinion...yes?

Yes in my not humble opinion , but if one can hear it's quite obvious.

david

 

[microstrip]

Ok...all in your humble opinion...yes?

Most of the time we write "IMHO" as an acronym to "in my biased opinion".

 

[Steve Williams]

Steve, what are the stock tubes in the ML3? Usually and IME, most tube manufacturers settle on readily available inexpensive tubes from the standard Russian suppliers. The very same manufacturers then spout that these are the best tubes for their gear. This makes sense, since from their perspective it would not be good business to state that their stock tubes can be easily surpassed and since most NOS tubes are not that easy to source and at reasonable pricing. (Never mind condition etc.,)
However, I have NEVER heard any tube gear that couldn’t be improved by rolling in some great NOS tubes. I’m sure you got a nice upswing when you rolled in the Telefunken...question is what more is available with the other tubes.

Sorry Davey but Vlad is most emphatic against tube rolling in any of his electronics. As I stated he knows his tubes and where to source them. That's where I buy mine

 

[microstrip]

(...) thanks Steve. I did enjoy the ML3's both times at your place.

one attraction was the absence of tube stress; meaning me stressing over tube choices. I already know I love the sound of the amp as it is.

(...)

GM70's with carbon or copper plates?

One of the reasons I love the conrad johnson's or ARC's is that we do not need to enter the ultra expensive NOS tube race. They stayed with current tubes.

 

[KeithR]

congrats Mike - always enjoy reading about your journey. good luck with the big Lamms!

 

[Steve Williams]

The only tubes you can roll are the 12AX7s if desired, don't have a choice on the other ones, Lamm simplicity!

david

and that is precisely what I did. I have used the ECC803S starting with my ML2.1 and now with the ML3 having found literally a brand new and unopened matched pair of Tele's

Vlad literally will provide a matched set with every tube order. In fact he always recommends buying an extra set of tubes for each channel. When a tube blows you take out the old set and send them back to Vlad in their proper boxes and insert the new set. He checks the returned tubes and determines which one is faulty and will send back the old set of tubes with a matched replacement. You remove your extra set and reinsert the set he returned to you

There is NO need to roll tubes with any Lamm component

 

[Steve Williams]

GM70's with carbon or copper plates?

One of the reasons I love the conrad johnson's or ARC's is that we do not need to enter the ultra expensive NOS tube race. They stayed with current tubes.

Vlad suplies carbon plate GM-70 tubes and they are excellent UNTIL you hear the copper plate GM-70 which IMO are in a league of their own. They are not cheap and difficult to find matched sets. When I bought the amp from him he had IIRC 6 pair of perfectly matched copper plate GM-70's. IIRC Vlad has a pair, I have a pair and David has a pair. There is another member here who also uses a pair. They are not inexpensive but worth every penny as they are IMO so much more natural sounding

The only tube which needs frequent replacement is the 6N30P quad set as they should be replaced every 18 months. The other tubes last 10,000 hours

 

[DaveyF]

Sorry Davey but Vlad is most emphatic against tube rolling in any of his electronics. As I stated he knows his tubes and where to source them. That's where I buy mine

Same thing goes for most tube designers that I know. For years Ken Stevens was exactly the same way, now he will bend a little on this subject. (I can’t tell you how many times he and I went back and forth on this very issue!) Like I said before, if I were in their position as a manufacturer, I would expound the same thing. (For very good reason).
However, I’m sure you heard the benefit of rolling in the various tubes that you did....only question is what are the other tubes that Vlad uses in his amps and his preamps. In the preamps, I’m very certain that the tubes speced could be improved upon. Personally I really couldn’t care that much as to what the designer believes is the best tube for his product, I’m all about using my own ears, and if they tell me he’s right...great. If not, then onwards we go.
YMMV.

 

[dminches]

GM70's with carbon or copper plates?

One of the reasons I love the conrad johnson's or ARC's is that we do not need to enter the ultra expensive NOS tube race. They stayed with current tubes.

The Audio Research equipment that I owned (Ref 5 SE and Phono 2 SE) sound much better with upgraded 6H30s over the stock Sovteks.

 

[DaveyF]

The Audio Research equipment that I owned (Ref 5 SE and Phono 2 SE) sound much better with upgraded 6H30s over the stock Sovteks.

No surprise whatsoever. If you ask ARC what tubes they recommend, they are going to tell you the stock Sovteks.
From their perspective, sourcing and listening to various 6h30’s makes no sense. Sovteks are fairly reliable, easy to source and fairly consistent.

 

[dminches]

There is NO need to roll tubes with any Lamm component

But, Steve, it sounds like you did change both the 12ax7 and GM-70s or am I misreading what you did?

 

[Steve Williams]

But, Steve, it sounds like you did change both the 12ax7 and GM-70s or am I misreading what you did?

No, only the 12AX7 for the Holy Grail an NOS ECC803S matched set. This is the only tube that Vlad has no problem with rolling

I bought the GM-70 Copper plate from Vlad when I bought the ML3/LL1/LP1. He supplies carbon plate as stock. The copper plate is used by Vlad, David, myself and another member here on WBF. Vlad had only 6 matched sets of the copper plate. They can be found online but not like the ones he sold us. The copper plate adds a whole lot more money. I can say that the carbon plate has a better bottom end than the copper plate BUT the copper plate is much more natural sounding

 

[dminches]

No, only the 12AX7 for the Holy Grail an NOS ECC803S matched set. This is the only tube that Vlad has no problem with rolling

I bought the GM-70 Copper plate from Vlad when I bought the ML3/LL1/LP1. He supplies carbon plate as stock. The copper plate is used by Vlad, David, myself and another member here on WBF. Vlad had only 6 matched sets of the copper plate. They can be found online but not like the ones he sold us. The copper plate adds a whole lot more money. I can say that the carbon plate has a better bottom end than the copper plate BUT the copper plate is much more natural sounding

Those Tele ECC803s require a home equity loan!

I know how nice the ECC 801s are so I am sure the 803s are equally nice.

 

[Steve Williams]

Those Tele ECC803s require a home equity loan!

I know how nice the ECC 801s are so I am sure the 803s are equally nice.

They are truly better than any other 12AX7 I have ever used. They call them the Holy Grail for good reason

I also have a perfect matched quad set of NOS Tele ECC801S on my Doshi Tape pre. That was the only tube I rolled on that component. As Mike L says and I agree, I have no desire to roll tubes especially when the mfr strongly advises against doing such