A question about room demands on speakers

[spiritofmusic]

Justin, and others, some on topic words of wisdom please

 

[Rodney Gold]

My words of wisdom : you cannot extrapolate/speculate what you hear elsewhere to what it will sound like in your room/space and system ...

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ah Rodney, very true
For instance would you have bought the Giyas if you'd not been given the choice of a home trial?
Custom Duettas would be a no returns journey
I'd have to be confident and order, and if a failure, sell them on myself at a loss
I've never yet bought a major, pricey, pivotal, component that didn't have the chance of trial or no quibble refund

 

[Rodney Gold]

Well, with my G1's ..I heard a demo in a hotel venue and it was not optimal at all.. went to 2 folk who have them set up in dedicated rooms and heard the qualities I liked and the potential and ordered a set.
It took me months and a rebuild of the room to get to what the speakers were capable of
As to the G1 spirits .. also heard a demo with VTL 450 monoblocks in a hotel venu.. no bass at all , good mids and treble .. the amps were clearly a mismatch (and we said so to Luke manley .. he wasnt impressed , but neither were we..)..after they demo they put the amp into another mode and messed with the damping factor and they sounded a bit better in the bass .. one of the major "improvement" areas of the spirits IS in their bass drivers
At any rate , my deal is to try the spirits for a month alongside my G1's , if I prefer them to G1's (which I do) I keep them , they trade my G1's in and I pay the difference .. if not I keep my G1's and they take the spirits back
I am keeping the spirits ..they are by far the best speaker I have heard in respect of what music I like and how they reproduce it and how they tailor in with my audiophile taste.
I would never have bought the spirits if it was an all or nothing decision..ie.. at this level of speaker and price .. the minimum would have been a trial period

 

[spiritofmusic]

Rodney, but you bought the original G1s on somewhat a "buyer beware" basis?
And altered yr room upfront?
If it hadn't worked out, would you have got a refund?
If not, then buying Duettas w no home trial and abs no refund poss, is identical to the risk you also took?

 

[bonzo75]

Rodney, but you bought the original G1s on somewhat a "buyer beware" basis?
And altered yr room upfront?
If it hadn't worked out, would you have got a refund?
If not, then buying Duettas w no home trial and abs no refund poss, is identical to the risk you also took?

How would he know since he hasn’t heard the Duettas? Given that you can easily get a duetta over to check out the bass, you will get a home trial. If you get a bass null you have a problem. It won’t sound as good as a properly done duetta but will tell you if the panels null out in your room or not. The mids will sound quite similar electronics aside, and you can always change crossover

 

[Rodney Gold]

The g1's were a little bit of a risk..however the price I paid more than made up for it..even if I sold them at a HUGE discount 2nd hand ..50% of list or a little less, I would actually have made money on the deal.
I rebuilt the room after I got them... realising they deserved the best room possible.
I have often bought cheaper end hifi unheard ..BUT almost exclusively 2nd hand at a "lowball" price..my thinking is that if it doesnt work out..I can shift it on at the price I paid.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Sure Rodney, low risk as a result
I'm losing the will to sell gear, w the mkt v poor for specialist gear on "for sale" boards
So, doing all I can to cut down future upgrades and need to move on current gear
I'm about to shift a couple of amps and cdp.s and other than additions, not replacements, to my rig like active or passive isoln platform/dedicated rack for tt, was not planning any component spends
That was, until the trip to Justin
And tbh, may v well still be
My Zus continue to give and open up here, w Entreq fully reintegrated into my system
I'm happy as an audiofool pig in ****!

 

[Zero000]

How would he know since he hasn’t heard the Duettas? Given that you can easily get a duetta over to check out the bass, you will get a home trial. If you get a bass null you have a problem. It won’t sound as good as a properly done duetta but will tell you if the panels null out in your room or not. The mids will sound quite similar electronics aside, and you can always change crossover

I don't think that is at all reasonable Kedar. If I was Jon I wouldn't even entertain the idea given the access requires a winch.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Justin, I've already discussed access nightmares w Jon
He's been waking at nights, in a cold sweat

 

[bonzo75]

I don't think that is at all reasonable Kedar. If I was Jon I wouldn't even entertain the idea given the access requires a winch.

Surely Marc contact some helpers who can lift the Duettas over? I think at 1k total cost this should be possible

 

[microstrip]

How would he know since he hasn’t heard the Duettas? Given that you can easily get a duetta over to check out the bass, you will get a home trial. If you get a bass null you have a problem. It won’t sound as good as a properly done duetta but will tell you if the panels null out in your room or not. The mids will sound quite similar electronics aside, and you can always change crossover

IMHO there is much more than a bass null when determining is a speaker is suitable to a room. When using a panel you also need adequate room gain. Such a large room will be less critical to nulls than a rigid small room, as peaks will be less sharp. I agree with you the proper way is trying the speaker in place.

 

[bonzo75]

IMHO there is much more than a bass null when determining is a speaker is suitable to a room. When using a panel you also need adequate room gain. Such a large room will be less critical to nulls than a rigid small room, as peaks will be less sharp. I agree with you the proper way is trying the speaker in place.

I have heard duettas in a larger room (Henk's). Gain will be fine, though amp change might be required as already discussed. I tried it in 3 different positions including firing across with back to all glass.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Micro, I'm afraid home trial of Duetta now, or prob ever, is not going to happen
My access is 10' off flr level, no steps, my usual access via spiral stairs is off limits to 26" wide spkrs
And at the point I'd be ready, and financially prepared, to commit, the chance of a pr of Duettas to try in the room other than the commissioned pr, would be v slim or zero
Only if I commit will I set up the winch/pulley needed to pull this off, this in itself won't be easy or cheap, and will need careful planning
Btw can I ask what you mean by "adequate room gain" for panels?
The synergy of correct amp for the panel to fully, and easily, energise the room, and saturate it w bass?
No, rather like committing to an unusual horn or big flagship box spkr w no UK distribn, it would be buyer beware, purchase based on hearing a pr in a room vaguely as spacious as mine
I'd have to have really done my homework, and been confident on principle...

 

[bonzo75]

Joel on using Trinnov with Maggie 20.7, suggests that the biggest difference the Trinnov made was on panels, and that using the Trinnov is more important than other crossover, room placement, etc, and possibly even more than the amplifier

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/trinnov/6.html

 

[Steve Williams]

Good morning .

I find this a most interesting thread with stimulating discussion however I must say that the admin team has gotten complaints by members of the interactions between Ked and Marc which seems to have escalated since yesterday with comments about misrepresentation.

Guys, this is a hobby for heaven's sake. It is negative interactions such as these that can poison a thread and leave such a bad taste with member(s) that they choose not to participate anymore at WBF. So to Ked, who we all know has no love lost for Marc, I would like to suggest please that you drop the innuendo and accusations. If Marc is such a problem for you Ked, I suggest that you take the high road and either ignore whatever it is that you find irritating or better yet challenge the post and not the poster. Name calling all too often blossoms into something worse which then becomes a no win situation.

Thanks for understanding guys and thank you all for reporting the post(s). A simple redirect such as mine should be all that is necessary to get this thread back on track

 

[bonzo75]

Hi Steve,

This has been sitting in Marc’s inbox since morning. Can you please tell me why he hasn’t posted it? This is Bill’s representation. In case you think I am name calling, you should know that he will purposefully slag off Lampi incorrectly to provoke. I have nothing against him representing correctly, but to do so incorrectly is – well - incorrect

So based on latest info:
> GG performance with 242 and most importantly full grounding system has elevated it to the TT level and sometimes beyond / sometime less depending on material
> It has really become a software format issue not hardware issue now.
> Can the GG beat the musicality and stage of the TT with a great Decca or Analogue Productions - no. But the gap with grounding and 242 is much closer.
> let's see what happens when TT grounding is sorted.
> Also, if the TT setting is not spot on, it doesn't sound as good

Can anyone please tell me how what he posted was correct?

 

[Steve Williams]

Hi Steve,

This has been sitting in Marc’s inbox since morning. Can you please tell me why he hasn’t posted it? This is Bill’s representation. In case you think I am name calling, you should know that he will purposefully slag off Lampi incorrectly to provoke. I have nothing against him representing correctly, but to do so incorrectly is – well - incorrect

So based on latest info:
> GG performance with 242 and most importantly full grounding system has elevated it to the TT level and sometimes beyond / sometime less depending on material
> It has really become a software format issue not hardware issue now.
> Can the GG beat the musicality and stage of the TT with a great Decca or Analogue Productions - no. But the gap with grounding and 242 is much closer.
> let's see what happens when TT grounding is sorted.
> Also, if the TT setting is not spot on, it doesn't sound as good

Can Marc sympathisers please tell me how what he posted was correct?

Ked
This is not only you Ked but also Marc. You guys are adults and the interactions between you guys are nion productive and seems to annoy many of the members who are also participating in the thread.

No big deal so let's all just enjoy the day and find a way to get along

 

[spiritofmusic]

Hi Steve
Truly sorry if I've contributed to pissing off other members
I've already informed Ked I will never respond to him again online, or PM
So problem solved my end
Thanks for intervening
Now, back to our scheduled programme...

 

[microstrip]

Micro, I'm afraid home trial of Duetta now, or prob ever, is not going to happen
My access is 10' off flr level, no steps, my usual access via spiral stairs is off limits to 26" wide spkrs
And at the point I'd be ready, and financially prepared, to commit, the chance of a pr of Duettas to try in the room other than the commissioned pr, would be v slim or zero
Only if I commit will I set up the winch/pulley needed to pull this off, this in itself won't be easy or cheap, and will need careful planning
Btw can I ask what you mean by "adequate room gain" for panels?
The synergy of correct amp for the panel to fully, and easily, energise the room, and saturate it w bass?
No, rather like committing to an unusual horn or big flagship box spkr w no UK distribn, it would be buyer beware, purchase based on hearing a pr in a room vaguely as spacious as mine
I'd have to have really done my homework, and been confident on principle...

I fully understand you - my listening room is ground floor, it is why I could try so many speakers!

Your large room is a very positive point, but will oblige us to re-consider the usual practice and wording. I am not an expert, and I should have been more careful with words. In principle "room gain" means the extra bass output we get when the room goes from wavelength to pressure, something that will only happen with box speakers, dipoles have not bass "room gain". However any extra output due to reflections elsewhere in the spectrum compared to anechoic response is sometimes also considered (abusively...) as "room gain" - this explains why panels can easily sound unbalanced and bright in some too reflective rooms. As stereo needs some refection from walls you need to carefully balance everything to optimize the system. It is why IMHO only real experience with the Duetta in place could give you an answer.

BTW, the best page I read on this subject is this one http://www.linkwitzlab.com/rooms.htm, from the LinkwitzLab site. Remember what wrote:

"Note: Calculations of room modes, though popular, are not practical for predicting optimum speaker placement or listener position. For this one would need to calculate the transfer function between speaker and listener. The transfer function is related to the room modes, but much more difficult to determine. Never-the-less, room mode calculations are often invoked to predict "optimum" room dimensions. They fail to take into account any specifics about speaker placement, source directivity and source type (monopole vs. dipole) that determine which modes are excited, and in combination with the absorption properties of different room surfaces, to which degree these resonances build up. Some people think that by making the room other than rectangular or using curved surfaces, that they can eliminate standing waves. They merely change frequencies, shift their distribution and make their calculation a lot more difficult."


BTW2 - your large room should be a great room for subwoofers, they work better in situations where they are not needed!