How Do You Shop For Cables?

[witchdoctor]

Hi Peter,

I've read your post attentively and can connect with your experience.

Question: If you would try another twenty different custom made cables for your system from different cable name manufacturers, how would you know which one is the best match?

Northstar, posts like the ones in this thread should help you get a shortlist from the 20 you start with. But now you know why I started this thread.

 

[DaveC]

Cables just don't turn me on.

Except power cables, of course.

Matej should be coming out with a review of my D4 RCA and XLR cables any day now...

 

[witchdoctor]

I have often wondered why some members do not start virtual system threads or discuss their specific equipment on forums. After reading a comment like this one above, I think I now know why. One never knows what kinds of comments he will get. But I am here to learn from others, so, Amir, do you have any data or graphs to support this claim about the Transparent REF XL MM2 cables? It would be interesting to see the results of this and learn how it corresponds to what they sound like with music signals running through them. "One of the worst" implies to me that you know how they perform in this test and that you have tested many different brands. Could you share your findings?

To answer the OP directly, I listened to my current set of cables in my own system over a period of four weeks and compared them to my existing cables. I preferred how the new cables sounded, so I bought them.

Thanks, that is pretty much what I have been doing. when you switch back to the old cable if you don't miss the new one I send it back.

 

[witchdoctor]

I reported in an earlier post upgrading some power cables and bringing the Entreq Athena into full operation - all three shelves earthed to a Silver Tellus.
The upgrades have made a signficant improvement but not sure what contribution each has made.
One of the changes was to upgrade the power cable on the Audience Aspect AR8 passive power condition to a high power Audience AU 24 SE and to change the fuse on the cable plug to a Phonosophie Gold 13 amp.
Because of the scale of the improvement I am inclined to attribute the lion's share to that upgrade and if correct that suggests to me that the place to start with cable upgrades is the power cables and to use a high end fuse. Previously I was sceptical about high end fuses notwithstanding posts about their benefits.
Does that accord with other members' experiences?

Great question about the fuses. I use an HTPS 7000 power conditioner from Monster which is stellar in my stsem. Once my toddler got a hold of the volume control when I was in another room and cranked it up to "11" and then I heard my system shut down. I "knew" the speakers had blown. What a nice surprise that the only thing that happened was a fuse blew in my trusted Monster PLC. Since I needed a new fuse I responded to an ad for Hi Fi fuses on Audiogon. I replaced all 3 fuses not just the one that blew and WOW, I noticed an improvement that made this a good investment. I have no idea how it would work in a different component but worked well for my needs. This is what I tried and the reviewer pretty well describes what I experienced:

http://www.stereotimes.com/acces122807.shtml

 

[witchdoctor]

The "official" cable measurements are meaningless, as people will only show a frequency response measurement with great pride, nothing else. Some cable manufacturers have specific proprietary measurements, that are not standard and are used for their development, but are not interested in sharing them with the public. But even just the standard RLC measurements can have some meaning - but we do not know how to interpret them. Gary Koh had an excellent thread on this topic a few years ago on this subject in WBF, explaining how he developed his cables. Other manufacturers have different models.

This is good info, I was hoping to find a metric that was consistent but i guess I understand why no one wants to share their IP.

 

[witchdoctor]

We had this debate on connectors used by other respectful brands before - if a manufacturer uses a cheap part because he finds it sounds better I applause him for using it over nice looking perhaps more solid parts. And I have to say I do not see why modern or new technology forcefully results in better sounding cables - in fact I humbly admit I am completely ignorant in cable sound quality - I can not correlate any cable parameter varying within normal ranges with sound quality. But I know that in my system, some sound great and much better than others.

The speaker cables I use have no connectors, they are bare wire because that is what the vendor found works best in his brand. The same is true for his XLR connectors, no neutrik, just 3 individual coneections you connect to each pin.

 

[witchdoctor]

Cables just don't turn me on.

My original cable selection process is embarrassing. I selected Transparent Audio cables not because I conducted exhaustive comparative listening tests via home trials in my own system but because those were the cables most used in demonstrations by VTL (which made my amps) and MartinLogan (which made my speakers) (and because Andy Payor used them).

I deduced that if both VTL and MartinLogan demo with them, then they must sound good in a VTL/MartinLogan system. The Transparent Audio cables sound good in my system, but I have never had any other cables in my system to compare to them.

Hi Ron, that makes sense to me. I just picked a DAC using the same method. KEF and Parasound demoed their $$$ gear using a $500 Mojo DAC from Chord at Axpona. A quick post at WBF got me great feedback from members who own it. I will post a review once I get it but feel 0 need to audition a bunch of other DAC's now.

 

[DaveC]

We had this debate on connectors used by other respectful brands before - if a manufacturer uses a cheap part because he finds it sounds better I applause him for using it over nice looking perhaps more solid parts. And I have to say I do not see why modern or new technology forcefully results in better sounding cables - in fact I humbly admit I am completely ignorant in cable sound quality - I can not correlate any cable parameter varying within normal ranges with sound quality. But I know that in my system, some sound great and much better than others.

I realize this is the case with most people and it does make things really difficult for me, I can't convey value when it's not recognized!

I can make cables that sound anyway you'd want them to by careful selection of parts. From warm and lush to bright and etched, it comes with experience from building a lot of cables over a lot of years. I can try to make some observations that may be helpful:

Wire:

- Copper is always warm, which is a better trade-off vs bright and harsh so copper is safe and some prefer it because it is warm. But warmth masks detail, especially in interconnect cables. Different types of copper also have different degrees of warmth... The warmest cable will use lower purity copper in heavier gauges with PVC insulation, anything less than 23g will have an effect on the highs making the sound seem even warmer. PVC adds to the effect, more muddy than warm though. Upgrading to higher purity copper, using wire thinner than 23g will and using teflon insulation will all improve the performance of the cable by reducing warmth and increasing resolution. Litz-type copper wire is made of many runs of very thin copper wire that are individually insulated and arranged so there are no inner or outer wires in the bundle, accomplished by twisting and/or braiding the wires, sometimes around a round or flat former. UPOCC copper is also less warm and more resolving vs typical copper and is about 3% more conductive vs the standard ETP copper.

Some cable companies have their tricks to get copper to perform better such as cryo, very high voltage pulses, using UPOCC copper etc... Kubala Sosna, Tara and Jorma have some copper cables that are far better than most, but they are expensive and still not as resolving and neutral as they could be. But for a lot of people this is a good trade off, especially if they own very accurate hard-coned speakers with similarly accurate SS amps. But imo this is more like compensation for speaker drivers with certain resonant problems combined with electronics that don't hide the truth. Somewhere you're going to need to add something to make this kind of system musical, but cables aren't the answer, amplification is... whether preamp or amp. See the recent reviews of Magico showing with tube amps...

- Silver is never warm and can add some very undesirable traits like accentuated leading edges, harshness, grain... basically what people call an "etched" sound. But it is more resolving than copper and some kinds of silver wire manage to avoid these effects. Silver wire needs to be very pure to avoid these issues, 5N silver is usually pretty good but UPOCC silver is 6N+ and is head and shoulders better than typical silver wire, it's by far the best wire for audio use generally available. It has one issue and that is the timbre of vocals and acoustic instruments can seem a bit light weight. This can be avoided by either using much larger gauges than needed, both Wireworld and Siltech use 17g UPOCC silver in their top end ic cables which is huge overkill. I have a custom UPOCC silver/gold alloy made for me, which provides a very realistic timbre and is the most accurate and neutral wire for audio I have ever tried, by far. It's also the most expensive wire in the world not counting pure gold, platinum, etc wire. Finally, Duelund has 5N silver wire with a mineral oil impregnated silk dielectric. This makes for a silver wire that is almost warm, it's very smooth and has a beautiful tone but it's far from neutral and makes for the most love-it/hate-it cable I've ever seen. It is more resolving than copper and if the tone has good synergy with your system you may love it, if not it can be really bad.

Dielectric: Air and cotton sound very good but allow the wire to corrode over time. I built some cables in cotton and oversized teflon tubes and the wire does corrode over the years. Some will say it doesn't matter but imo that's BS. The truth is it's a subtle difference vs regular teflon insulation, and imo it's far better to have a cable whose wire will not corrode over time. I have made prototype cables with nitrogen gas dielectric and this works pretty well but is much more difficult to manufacture.

Geometry: a litz-type geometry using wire smaller than 23g is key. Coax type cables always sound bad. Side-by-side is missing the opportunity to use noise-canceling geometry, usually these are ribbon cables and while they can sound good it's nowhere near as good as a litz braid.

Connectors: For RCA plugs it hard to beat WBT 0102 Ag, imo they are the king of RCA plugs. For a good bit less of a retail price the Furutech FP-108 are excellent, this is rhodium plated pure copper, the same plugs as the very expensive CF-102 but with a brass body instead of carbon/stainless. Then there's the Furutech FP-126(R), probably the best value for the money available. On speaker cable connectors, they make much less of a difference vs ic cable connectors, but it's still worth it to use good quality pure copper connectors, imo Furutech makes some of the best with their FT-211/212 spades and bananas. WBT is very good but expensive and the Furutech carbon fiber/stainless models feature far nicer construction quality vs WBT and the sound isn't much different.

 

[Steve Williams]

Fabulous but if information in your last post. Thanks Dave

 

[NorthStar]

Which just goes to illustrate that measurements alone may not entirely equate to the empirical expeareance!

My Own Kimber 8TC's are bagged, tagged and in the loft by reason of the latter.

Jim H. Hayward (Phd and Bell Canada ex-electrical engineer, plus...) only measured nine cables, and that was about fifteen years ago.

The following speaker cables were measured and studied:
1 > Prism Time-Compensated
2 > Nordost Flatline
3 > Kimber 8TC
4 > Kimber 4TC
5 > Cardas Quadlink 5C
6 > van den Hul The Revelation
7 > van den hul Hybrid
8 > Amphenol RG8/U
9 > lamp cord (16 AWG)
________

Today we have hundreds of cable manufacturers, and some of them are way way more expensive than the ones from fifteen years ago; it's called audio cable evolution.
I am certain that today's more expensive cables outperform yesterday's ones. ...Outperform them on what? //// That, is the question, because measurements alone is not the full story, and neither a pair of speaker cables (3-meter long) for $40,000/pair. So, how do we shop for cables, how do you shop yourself for your own cables?

 

[NorthStar]

Except power cables, of course.

Matej should be coming out with a review of my D4 RCA and XLR cables any day now...

Speaking of cables; speaker cables, interconnect cables, digital and analog cables, balanced (XLR) and unbalanced (RCA) cables, mono, stereo, mutichannel (HDMI) cables, USB cables, AC powered cables, ...all cables, and in this thread about How to shop for Cables:
? http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/powercords.html

 

[Barry2013]

Great question about the fuses. I use an HTPS 7000 power conditioner from Monster which is stellar in my stsem. Once my toddler got a hold of the volume control when I was in another room and cranked it up to "11" and then I heard my system shut down. I "knew" the speakers had blown. What a nice surprise that the only thing that happened was a fuse blew in my trusted Monster PLC. Since I needed a new fuse I responded to an ad for Hi Fi fuses on Audiogon. I replaced all 3 fuses not just the one that blew and WOW, I noticed an improvement that made this a good investment. I have no idea how it would work in a different component but worked well for my needs. This is what I tried and the reviewer pretty well describes what I experienced:

http://www.stereotimes.com/acces122807.shtml

Thank you
That is interesting and the stereotimes review is very much in line with my experience with the one Phonosophie fuse on the Aspect power cable, albeit in conjunction with other upgrades previously detailed.
I'll probably add some more on the power cables or try some internal fuses and will let you know how it goes.
Certainly very tempted.

 

[Barry2013]

I realize this is the case with most people and it does make things really difficult for me, I can't convey value when it's not recognized!

I can make cables that sound anyway you'd want them to by careful selection of parts. From warm and lush to bright and etched, it comes with experience from building a lot of cables over a lot of years. I can try to make some observations that may be helpful:

Wire:

- Copper is always warm, which is a better trade-off vs bright and harsh so copper is safe and some prefer it because it is warm. But warmth masks detail, especially in interconnect cables. Different types of copper also have different degrees of warmth... The warmest cable will use lower purity copper in heavier gauges with PVC insulation, anything less than 23g will have an effect on the highs making the sound seem even warmer. PVC adds to the effect, more muddy than warm though. Upgrading to higher purity copper, using wire thinner than 23g will and using teflon insulation will all improve the performance of the cable by reducing warmth and increasing resolution. Litz-type copper wire is made of many runs of very thin copper wire that are individually insulated and arranged so there are no inner or outer wires in the bundle, accomplished by twisting and/or braiding the wires, sometimes around a round or flat former. UPOCC copper is also less warm and more resolving vs typical copper and is about 3% more conductive vs the standard ETP copper.

Some cable companies have their tricks to get copper to perform better such as cryo, very high voltage pulses, using UPOCC copper etc... Kubala Sosna, Tara and Jorma have some copper cables that are far better than most, but they are expensive and still not as resolving and neutral as they could be. But for a lot of people this is a good trade off, especially if they own very accurate hard-coned speakers with similarly accurate SS amps. But imo this is more like compensation for speaker drivers with certain resonant problems combined with electronics that don't hide the truth. Somewhere you're going to need to add something to make this kind of system musical, but cables aren't the answer, amplification is... whether preamp or amp. See the recent reviews of Magico showing with tube amps...

- Silver is never warm and can add some very undesirable traits like accentuated leading edges, harshness, grain... basically what people call an "etched" sound. But it is more resolving than copper and some kinds of silver wire manage to avoid these effects. Silver wire needs to be very pure to avoid these issues, 5N silver is usually pretty good but UPOCC silver is 6N+ and is head and shoulders better than typical silver wire, it's by far the best wire for audio use generally available. It has one issue and that is the timbre of vocals and acoustic instruments can seem a bit light weight. This can be avoided by either using much larger gauges than needed, both Wireworld and Siltech use 17g UPOCC silver in their top end ic cables which is huge overkill. I have a custom UPOCC silver/gold alloy made for me, which provides a very realistic timbre and is the most accurate and neutral wire for audio I have ever tried, by far. It's also the most expensive wire in the world not counting pure gold, platinum, etc wire. Finally, Duelund has 5N silver wire with a mineral oil impregnated silk dielectric. This makes for a silver wire that is almost warm, it's very smooth and has a beautiful tone but it's far from neutral and makes for the most love-it/hate-it cable I've ever seen. It is more resolving than copper and if the tone has good synergy with your system you may love it, if not it can be really bad.

Dielectric: Air and cotton sound very good but allow the wire to corrode over time. I built some cables in cotton and oversized teflon tubes and the wire does corrode over the years. Some will say it doesn't matter but imo that's BS. The truth is it's a subtle difference vs regular teflon insulation, and imo it's far better to have a cable whose wire will not corrode over time. I have made prototype cables with nitrogen gas dielectric and this works pretty well but is much more difficult to manufacture.

Geometry: a litz-type geometry using wire smaller than 23g is key. Coax type cables always sound bad. Side-by-side is missing the opportunity to use noise-canceling geometry, usually these are ribbon cables and while they can sound good it's nowhere near as good as a litz braid.

Connectors: For RCA plugs it hard to beat WBT 0102 Ag, imo they are the king of RCA plugs. For a good bit less of a retail price the Furutech FP-108 are excellent, this is rhodium plated pure copper, the same plugs as the very expensive CF-102 but with a brass body instead of carbon/stainless. Then there's the Furutech FP-126(R), probably the best value for the money available. On speaker cable connectors, they make much less of a difference vs ic cable connectors, but it's still worth it to use good quality pure copper connectors, imo Furutech makes some of the best with their FT-211/212 spades and bananas. WBT is very good but expensive and the Furutech carbon fiber/stainless models feature far nicer construction quality vs WBT and the sound isn't much different.

Thanks Dave for such an informative post.
I would be interested in your views and experiences of audiophile fuses if that is not too much to ask given that it appears to be pretty contentious territory.
My earlier post sets out my first and favourable experience albeit quite limited.

 

[NorthStar]

• http://www.venhaus1.com/diycatfivecables.html
• https://www.audioholics.com/gadget-reviews/diy-speaker-cable-faceoff

? http://www.geocities.ws/jonrisch/c4.htm
____________

Here is more from the articles Jim H. Hayward wrote for Audio Ideas Guide.

"When you’re dealing with interconnect cables the three major performance issues are Resistance (R), Inductance (L) and Capacitance (C). Because the interface, in the case of an analog audio interconnect is a ‘high impedance’ connection, any issue with resistance and inductance is a moot point with high quality cables (especially at the distances typically used in audio systems). What is very important is the parallel capacitance.

Capacitance, unlike resistance and inductance, can cause serious negative consequences in an audio system. The real culprit in this case is the sources’ output impedance. The cable capacitance is charged and discharged by the signal through the output impedance of the source – usually a preamplifier. Any waveform smearing occurs at a rate that is determined by the mathematical product of output impedance (Z) and parallel capacitance (C) and is independent of signal frequency and amplitude.

This characteristic makes the cable behave like a low-pass filter so the output impedance and input load impedance is very important when connecting your equipment.

This is why it is critical when using tube equipment (which generally has high output impedance) to keep interconnects as short as possible. It is also why using passive volume controls can be a serious problem because the passive control will actually change the frequency response of your system as a function of its position of rotation. So at the 9 o’clock position you have one frequency response and at the 12 o’clock position you have another frequency response. The reason this is happening is because the passive control is changing its output impedance with position and therefore its frequency response. No wonder people sometimes report hearing major differences in cables when using these types of systems.

So the major point here is that cables always have to be viewed as an integral part of a circuit and recognize that what you are hearing from cable to cable is in actuality a frequency response shift as a result of the interaction of the cable with the specific source and the specific load. You are never listening to just the cable.

It is generally agreed, with analog interconnects, that your source impedance should be at least 10 times to 50 times smaller than your load impedance if flat frequency response is the goal. The output impedance of the Bryston BP 25 preamplifier is less than 100 ohms. The input impedance of Bryston amplifiers is typically between 20K and 50K Ohms."

If you want a much more detailed explanation of all the issues discussed above have a look at Jim Hayward’s superb article in Andrew Marshall’s Audio Ideas Guide Magazine (Summer/Fall 1994).

____________
____________

From Arny;

"Dr. Larry Greenhill organized a DBT of cables using the members and member system(s) of The Audiophile Society. The outcome was negative for audible difference for all but a trivial case involving a relatively long piece of 24 gauge wire, if memory serves.

Greenhill, Larry 'Speaker Cables: Can you Hear the Difference?' Stereo Review, Aug 83, pg 46-51.

I don't have the full 6 page article, but this is from its conclusions:

"...So what do our fifty hours of testing, scoring and listening to speaker cables amount to? Only that 16-gauge lamp cord and Monster cable are indistinguishable from each other with music and seem to be superior to the 24 gauge wire commonly sold or given away as 'speaker cable.' Remember, however, that it was a measurable characteristic--higher resistance per foot--that made 24 gauge sound different from the other cables. If the cable runs were only 6 instead of 30 feet, the overall cable resistances would have been lower and our tests would probably have found no audible differences between the three cables. This project was unable to validate the sonic benefits claimed for exotic speaker cables over common 16-gauge zip cord. We can only conclude, therefore, that there is little advantage besides pride of ownership in using these thick, expensive wires"

Critical commentary here: http://www.stereophile.com/historical/1283cable/

Other articles that must be reviewed in detail before such a sweeping statement as was made above could possibly be valid:

"Are those Ears Really Golden? (Or only Iron Pyrites)", Smith, Thomas H., Peterson, Michael R., and
Jackson, Peter O., The Audio Amateur, 1/80, pg 34, 36, 38, &32.
"The Great Ego Crunchers: Equalized, Double Blind Testing", Shanefield, Daniel, Hi-Fidelity, Mar 80,
pg 57-61.
"Audio Specifications and Human Hearing", Davis, Mark F., Stereo Review, May 82, pg 48-52.
"Can you Trust Your Ears?", Nousaine, Tom, Stereo Review, Aug 97, pg 53-55.
"The Science of Listening", Masters, Ian G., Audio Dec 97, pg 40-47.
"Ten Years of A/B/X Testing", Clark, David L., Presented at the 91st AES Convention, Oct 91, Print
#3167 .
"High-Resolution Subjective Testing Using a Double-Blind Comparator", Clark, David, Journal of the
Audio Engineering Society, Vol30, no 5, May82, pg 330-338.
"Amplifier-Loudspeaker Interfacing", Greiner, R.A., JAES vol. 28, no. 5 May 80, pg
"Another Look at Speaker Cables", Greiner, R.A., BAS Speaker Dec 78, addendum March 79
"Cables and the Amp Speaker Interface", Greiner, R.A., Audio, Aug 89, addendum Nov 89,
"Effects of cable, Loudspeaker and Amplifier Interactions", Davis, Fred E., JAES, vol. 39, no. 6 Jun 91
"Speaker Cables: Testing for Audibility", Davis, Fred E., Audio, Jul 93
"The Amp/Speaker Interface", Meyer, E.B., Stereo Review, June 91
"Cable and Sound Delivery", Newell, P., Studio Sound, Jul 91
"Cable Bound", Olsher, D., Stereophile, Jul 88
"Getting Wired", Warren, R., Stereo Review, Jun 90
"Loudspeaker Cables", Moir, J., Hi-Fi News& Record Review, May 79
"Speaker Cables: Science or Snake Oil", Pass, Nelson, Speaker Builder, Feb 80
"Will ‘Beasty’ Speaker Cables Improve your Audio?", Honeycutt, R. A., Radio-Electronics, Feb 91
"The Wire and Cable Scene: Facts, Fictions and Frauds", Aczel, P. The Audio Critic, Part I- Issue 15,
Spring-Winter 90-91; Part II-Issue 16, Spring-Fall 91, pg 51-57; Part III- issue 17, Winter 91-92,
pg.50-52.
"Speaker Cables: Can you Hear the Difference?", Greenhill, Larry, Stereo Review, Aug 83, pg 46-51.
"Cable Conflicts: The Mystery of Getting Wired", Klein, Larry, Electronics Now, Dec 93, pg. 80& 83
"Wired Wisdom, The Great Chicago Cable Caper", Nousaine, Tom, Sound & Vision(Canada), Sep 95,
pg. 73-76.
"Speaker Cables, Measurements vs Psychoacoustic Data", Villchur, Edgar, Audio, Jul 94, pg 34-37.
"Cross Talk, Do Cables Have a Sonic Personality all their Own?", Kessler, Kehn & Nousaine, Tom,
Video, May 96, pg. 36-40.
"Does Wire Directionality Exist?", Lampen, Stephen, Speaker Builder, 3/98, pg 30, 31.
"Amplifier-Loudspeaker Interfacing", Greiner, R.A., JAES vol. 28, no. 5 May 80, pg
"Another Look at Speaker Cables", Greiner, R.A., BAS Speaker Dec 78, addendum March 79
"Cables and the Amp Speaker Interface", Greiner, R.A., Audio, Aug 89, addendum Nov 89,
"Forum: Twist and Turns", Greiner, R.A., Audio, Jan 92, pg.
"Effects of cable, Loudspeaker and Amplifier Interactions", Davis, Fred E., JAES, vol. 39, no. 6 Jun
91, pg.
"Speaker Cables: Testing for Audibility", Davis, Fred E., Audio, Jul 93, pg.
"Alpha-Core Goertz M1 & M2 Speaker Cables", Davis, Fred E., Audio, Aud 94, pg. 64, 65.
"The Amp/Speaker Interface", Meyer, E.B., Stereo Review, June 91, pg
"Cable and Sound Delivery", Newell, P., Studio Sound, Jul 91, pg
"Cable Bound", Olsher, D., Stereophile, Jul 88, pg
"Getting Wired", Warren, R., Stereo Review, Jun 90, pg.
"Loudspeaker Cables", Moir, J., Hi-Fi News& Record Review, May 79, pg.
"Making the Right Connections", Murray, E., CD Review, Aud 91, pg.
"Speaker Cables Compared", Ward, C. J., Thompson and Harling M., BAS Speaker, Apr 80,
"Speaker Cables: Science or Snake Oil", Pass, Nelson, Speaker Builder, Feb 80, pg.
"What’s All this Splicing Stuff, Anyhow?", Pease, R. A., Electronic Digest, Dec 27, 90, pg.
"What’s All this Splicing Stuff, Anyhow?", Pease, R. A., part 2, Electronic Design, Jul 11, 91, pg.
"Will ‘Beasty’ Speaker Cables Improve your Audio?", Honeycutt, R. A., Radio-Electronics, Feb 91, pg.
"The Wire and Cable Scene: Facts, Fictions and Frauds", Aczel, P. The Audio Critic, Part I- Issue 15,
Spring-Winter 90-91; Part II-Issue 16, Spring-Fall 91, pg 51-57; Part III- issue 17, Winter 91-92,
pg.50-52.
"Amplifiers and Speaker Cables", Masters, Ian, Audio lab test, Audio Scene Canada, Jun 81, pg 24-
27.
"Speaker Cables: Can you Hear the Difference?", Greenhill, Larry, Stereo Review, Aug 83, pg 46-51.
"Cable Conflicts: The Mystery of Getting Wired", Klein, Larry, Electronics Now, Dec 93, pg. 80& 83."Wired Wisdom, The Great Chicago Cable Caper", Nousaine, Tom, Sound & Vision(Canada), Sep 95,
pg. 73-76.
"Beating the Bafflegab & Filtering the FooFooDust", Hayward, James, Part 1- Marshall’s Audio Ideas
Guide(Canada) Summer/Fall 94
"Making the Connection. Part Deux: A Closer Look at the Role of Loudspeaker Cables", Hayward,
James, Winter 95. Reprints available from Kimberkable.
"1/4" Cable Roundup", Gallagher, Mitch, Keyboard, Apr 99, pg. 44-48.
"Speaker Cables, Measurements vs Psychoacoustic Data", Villchur, Edgar, Audio, Jul 94, pg 34-37.
"The Truth About Speaker Cables", Hoffman, Williwam R., Popular Electronics, Jul 95, pg 46-48,
&93.
"Cross Talk, Do Cables Have a Sonic Personality all their Own?", Kessler, Kehn & Nousaine, Tom,
Video, May 96, pg. 36-40.
"Does Wire Directionality Exist?", Lampen, Stephen, Speaker Builder, 3/98, pg 30, 31.
"String ‘em Up!", Butterworth, Brent & Griffin, Al, Home Theater, Aug 1997, pg 90-108.
"Walking the High Wire", Butterworth, Brent, Home Theater, Nov 98, pg 94-102.

 

[witchdoctor]

Thanks Dave for such an informative post.
I would be interested in your views and experiences of audiophile fuses if that is not too much to ask given that it appears to be pretty contentious territory.
My earlier post sets out my first and favourable experience albeit quite limited.

+1, thanks DaveC

 

[microstrip]

I realize this is the case with most people and it does make things really difficult for me, I can't convey value when it's not recognized!

I can make cables that sound anyway you'd want them to by careful selection of parts. From warm and lush to bright and etched, it comes with experience from building a lot of cables over a lot of years. I can try to make some observations that may be helpful:

Wire:

- Copper is always warm, which is a better trade-off vs bright and harsh so copper is safe and some prefer it because it is warm. But warmth masks detail, especially in interconnect cables. Different types of copper also have different degrees of warmth... The warmest cable will use lower purity copper in heavier gauges with PVC insulation, anything less than 23g will have an effect on the highs making the sound seem even warmer. PVC adds to the effect, more muddy than warm though. Upgrading to higher purity copper, using wire thinner than 23g will and using teflon insulation will all improve the performance of the cable by reducing warmth and increasing resolution. Litz-type copper wire is made of many runs of very thin copper wire that are individually insulated and arranged so there are no inner or outer wires in the bundle, accomplished by twisting and/or braiding the wires, sometimes around a round or flat former. UPOCC copper is also less warm and more resolving vs typical copper and is about 3% more conductive vs the standard ETP copper.

Some cable companies have their tricks to get copper to perform better such as cryo, very high voltage pulses, using UPOCC copper etc... Kubala Sosna, Tara and Jorma have some copper cables that are far better than most, but they are expensive and still not as resolving and neutral as they could be. But for a lot of people this is a good trade off, especially if they own very accurate hard-coned speakers with similarly accurate SS amps. But imo this is more like compensation for speaker drivers with certain resonant problems combined with electronics that don't hide the truth. Somewhere you're going to need to add something to make this kind of system musical, but cables aren't the answer, amplification is... whether preamp or amp. See the recent reviews of Magico showing with tube amps...

- Silver is never warm and can add some very undesirable traits like accentuated leading edges, harshness, grain... basically what people call an "etched" sound. But it is more resolving than copper and some kinds of silver wire manage to avoid these effects. Silver wire needs to be very pure to avoid these issues, 5N silver is usually pretty good but UPOCC silver is 6N+ and is head and shoulders better than typical silver wire, it's by far the best wire for audio use generally available. It has one issue and that is the timbre of vocals and acoustic instruments can seem a bit light weight. This can be avoided by either using much larger gauges than needed, both Wireworld and Siltech use 17g UPOCC silver in their top end ic cables which is huge overkill. I have a custom UPOCC silver/gold alloy made for me, which provides a very realistic timbre and is the most accurate and neutral wire for audio I have ever tried, by far. It's also the most expensive wire in the world not counting pure gold, platinum, etc wire. Finally, Duelund has 5N silver wire with a mineral oil impregnated silk dielectric. This makes for a silver wire that is almost warm, it's very smooth and has a beautiful tone but it's far from neutral and makes for the most love-it/hate-it cable I've ever seen. It is more resolving than copper and if the tone has good synergy with your system you may love it, if not it can be really bad.

Dielectric: Air and cotton sound very good but allow the wire to corrode over time. I built some cables in cotton and oversized teflon tubes and the wire does corrode over the years. Some will say it doesn't matter but imo that's BS. The truth is it's a subtle difference vs regular teflon insulation, and imo it's far better to have a cable whose wire will not corrode over time. I have made prototype cables with nitrogen gas dielectric and this works pretty well but is much more difficult to manufacture.

Geometry: a litz-type geometry using wire smaller than 23g is key. Coax type cables always sound bad. Side-by-side is missing the opportunity to use noise-canceling geometry, usually these are ribbon cables and while they can sound good it's nowhere near as good as a litz braid.

Connectors: For RCA plugs it hard to beat WBT 0102 Ag, imo they are the king of RCA plugs. For a good bit less of a retail price the Furutech FP-108 are excellent, this is rhodium plated pure copper, the same plugs as the very expensive CF-102 but with a brass body instead of carbon/stainless. Then there's the Furutech FP-126(R), probably the best value for the money available. On speaker cable connectors, they make much less of a difference vs ic cable connectors, but it's still worth it to use good quality pure copper connectors, imo Furutech makes some of the best with their FT-211/212 spades and bananas. WBT is very good but expensive and the Furutech carbon fiber/stainless models feature far nicer construction quality vs WBT and the sound isn't much different.

Thanks Dave, great summary. You focus mostly on materials, I can imagine that different brands and suppliers will introduce large differences in sound quality.

 

[MadFloyd]

I realize this is the case with most people and it does make things really difficult for me, I can't convey value when it's not recognized!

I can make cables that sound anyway you'd want them to by careful selection of parts. From warm and lush to bright and etched, it comes with experience from building a lot of cables over a lot of years. I can try to make some observations that may be helpful:

Wire:

- Copper is always warm, which is a better trade-off vs bright and harsh so copper is safe and some prefer it because it is warm. But warmth masks detail, especially in interconnect cables. Different types of copper also have different degrees of warmth... The warmest cable will use lower purity copper in heavier gauges with PVC insulation, anything less than 23g will have an effect on the highs making the sound seem even warmer. PVC adds to the effect, more muddy than warm though. Upgrading to higher purity copper, using wire thinner than 23g will and using teflon insulation will all improve the performance of the cable by reducing warmth and increasing resolution. Litz-type copper wire is made of many runs of very thin copper wire that are individually insulated and arranged so there are no inner or outer wires in the bundle, accomplished by twisting and/or braiding the wires, sometimes around a round or flat former. UPOCC copper is also less warm and more resolving vs typical copper and is about 3% more conductive vs the standard ETP copper.

Some cable companies have their tricks to get copper to perform better such as cryo, very high voltage pulses, using UPOCC copper etc... Kubala Sosna, Tara and Jorma have some copper cables that are far better than most, but they are expensive and still not as resolving and neutral as they could be. But for a lot of people this is a good trade off, especially if they own very accurate hard-coned speakers with similarly accurate SS amps. But imo this is more like compensation for speaker drivers with certain resonant problems combined with electronics that don't hide the truth. Somewhere you're going to need to add something to make this kind of system musical, but cables aren't the answer, amplification is... whether preamp or amp. See the recent reviews of Magico showing with tube amps...

- Silver is never warm and can add some very undesirable traits like accentuated leading edges, harshness, grain... basically what people call an "etched" sound. But it is more resolving than copper and some kinds of silver wire manage to avoid these effects. Silver wire needs to be very pure to avoid these issues, 5N silver is usually pretty good but UPOCC silver is 6N+ and is head and shoulders better than typical silver wire, it's by far the best wire for audio use generally available. It has one issue and that is the timbre of vocals and acoustic instruments can seem a bit light weight. This can be avoided by either using much larger gauges than needed, both Wireworld and Siltech use 17g UPOCC silver in their top end ic cables which is huge overkill. I have a custom UPOCC silver/gold alloy made for me, which provides a very realistic timbre and is the most accurate and neutral wire for audio I have ever tried, by far. It's also the most expensive wire in the world not counting pure gold, platinum, etc wire. Finally, Duelund has 5N silver wire with a mineral oil impregnated silk dielectric. This makes for a silver wire that is almost warm, it's very smooth and has a beautiful tone but it's far from neutral and makes for the most love-it/hate-it cable I've ever seen. It is more resolving than copper and if the tone has good synergy with your system you may love it, if not it can be really bad.

Dielectric: Air and cotton sound very good but allow the wire to corrode over time. I built some cables in cotton and oversized teflon tubes and the wire does corrode over the years. Some will say it doesn't matter but imo that's BS. The truth is it's a subtle difference vs regular teflon insulation, and imo it's far better to have a cable whose wire will not corrode over time. I have made prototype cables with nitrogen gas dielectric and this works pretty well but is much more difficult to manufacture.

Geometry: a litz-type geometry using wire smaller than 23g is key. Coax type cables always sound bad. Side-by-side is missing the opportunity to use noise-canceling geometry, usually these are ribbon cables and while they can sound good it's nowhere near as good as a litz braid.

Connectors: For RCA plugs it hard to beat WBT 0102 Ag, imo they are the king of RCA plugs. For a good bit less of a retail price the Furutech FP-108 are excellent, this is rhodium plated pure copper, the same plugs as the very expensive CF-102 but with a brass body instead of carbon/stainless. Then there's the Furutech FP-126(R), probably the best value for the money available. On speaker cable connectors, they make much less of a difference vs ic cable connectors, but it's still worth it to use good quality pure copper connectors, imo Furutech makes some of the best with their FT-211/212 spades and bananas. WBT is very good but expensive and the Furutech carbon fiber/stainless models feature far nicer construction quality vs WBT and the sound isn't much different.

Amazing info and seems to match little tidbits of info that I've heard throughout the years.

It sure sounds like you have a lot of experience making cables. You should consider selling them.

 

[DaveC]

Thanks Dave, great summary. You focus mostly on materials, I can imagine that different brands and suppliers will introduce large differences in sound quality.

Yes, connectors make a huge difference in ic cables with wire type being the most important variable. Geometry does make a big difference too, both in how the wires are built up out of smaller gauges of wire and how the legs are combined. I use litz principles for all of it, but don't want to go into specifics as that's part of my design and while simple it seems unique enough I haven't seen it done elsewhere. Geometry determines the capacitance and inductance balance and can also reject noise, so it is very important.

Amazing info and seems to match little tidbits of info that I've heard throughout the years.

It sure sounds like you have a lot of experience making cables. You should consider selling them.

Ha, check my signature.

------------------------------

Barry 2013, on fuses I don't have enough experience with the newest models but some of my customers and friends do and it seems the best of the best is currently Audio Magic with some folks really liking SR black. Furutech is always very good, that's what I used in my Tortuga LDR/Aikido preamp. Furutech are very clean and don't alter the sound, just give better clarity and dynamics while other fuses may editorialize a bit... From comments I've heard I'd like to try the AM beeswax fuses though...


-------------------------------

If anyone has any other questions let me know, lots I didn't cover but I tried to touch on the basics.

One thing rarely mentioned with power cables is that power is an AC signal, a 60 Hz sine wave, so simple resistance doesn't completely describe the impedance, like signal cables there are complex impedances from the interaction of the AC waveform with inductance and capacitance, so there is an AC impedance that takes L and C into account, but cable designers don't seem to notice. One of the benefits of aftermarket power cables is more instantaneous current available and looking at the power cable in terms of lowering AC impedance as well as DC resistance is helpful, so I use litz design in my power cables and it works incredibly well. Also with power cables the plugs make a massive difference, some say more than the wire, and it might be true that the plugs and receptacles are really the most important part. IMO Furutech's top end FI-50 type plugs and GTX receptacles are head and shoulders better than any others. Finally, the ground wire can make a big difference in power cables and it often carries some of the return in signal ended systems, depending on component grounding schemes. I've seen some designers undersize the ground wire thinking it doesn't matter as much, but that's wrong and it should be at least as heavy a gauge as the main conductors, for my cables the 14g cable has an 11g ground connection, same as the 11g version. And again, litz wire works better for this as it has less AC impedance.

 

[witchdoctor]

DaveC, I thought you might like this paper on skin effect and litz wire. Your contributions to my thread are much appreciated:

http://www.intex.tokyo/e/puzzle/pzl-21.html

 

[NorthStar]