I do not think we all hear the same things or perceive the same differences. I've been doing a lot of critical listening lately to DACs and room treatment and just today to two different turntables in my system in a direct comparison with identical cartridge, tonearm, and cable. My friends and I all listen for slightly different things. Even when discussion what we hear during the evaluations, some of us can identify the same differences and others can not. It is very interesting, but not surprising. We may prioritize different things when listening and have different levels of experience or hearing ability. It makes for lively discussions which can be quite enlightening.
Vinyl Rips: Where analog meets digital and what can they tell us?
- Thread starter PeterA
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I do not think we all hear the same things or perceive the same differences. I've been doing a lot of critical listening lately to DACs and room treatment and just today to two different turntables in my system in a direct comparison with identical cartridge, tonearm, and cable. My friends and I all listen for slightly different things. Even when discussion what we hear during the evaluations, some of us can identify the same differences and others can not. It is very interesting, but not surprising. We may prioritize different things when listening and have different levels of experience or hearing ability. It makes for lively discussions which can be quite enlightening.
This article I read from the Philips engineer on dsd addressed that issue about the transparency of DSD versus direct feed was covered
He said that this was often claimed, and provided the dsd adc and dsd dac were on the same clock, superficially they sounded very similar, however, on deeper listening differences could be discerned, so it wasn't really true, but he could see how people could get that impression....
Blizzard would not know higher level vinyl or tape performance if it bit him in the *ss. He had much to contribute on many levels but analog reproduction was not one of them.
I could not agree more that hi rez vinyl rips (I think dsd or 2xdsd has advantages over up to 196/24 PCM for ripping) can be very high performance and bring vinyl-like performance to the digital experience. we don't need to get caught up whether it equals the highest vinyl performance or whether the ripping process can be completely transparent.
and vinyl rips allow thru enough of the vinyl 'goodness' to make them fun to listen to. big, bold, and meaty. juicy.
it seems to me that common sense tells us that any analog master to digital transfer will not be perfect. my experience with analog and digital masters of the same mic feed favors the analog......of what I've heard. tape to tape (1 generation) transfers seem to my ears to be almost identical to a degree beyond any A to D transfer since the analog 'nuance' gets preserved with maybe a slight noise level increase.
all this anecdotal experience points to digital rips not being transparent. but there is no proof I'm right.....just my experience so far.
it was recorded in my room, off my tt through my phono stage. Winston Ma asked if he could do the project in my room.
it was a long day of recording but a great fun experience. the best part was when the pro audio guys listened to the files and then the vinyl direct back to back.
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
These are 2 cartridges playing the same music back to back. We spent a long day at MikeL's place doing these rips. At the time, Mike had the Forsell TT with Van den hul Colibri cart that we used. The pro guys that were there brought 2 ADC converters. A PM2 was used to record 176.4kHz and my Digital Audio Denmark AX24 was used to record in 32/352.8kHz. These parameters were picked by Winston.
All of us picked the DAD ADC converter as the truest to the source.
These ADC converters are now over 10yr. old... a lifetime in digital sense. The newer crop of converters are to my opinion, about 20-25% better than what we used.
As an aside, many times I have run 2 lines out from a phono stage into a pre-amp. One of the lines had an ADC/DAC loop. Up until recently, you could easily pick out nuances that were distinguishable related to the straight analog line. Today's ADC/DAC converters now blur that line to where one can be fooled easily in a blind test.
Yes, Amir, even though it was recorded and mastered in DXD, it's still a Redbook CD in the end.
The phenomenal honesty and expertise of people like Bruce, and helpfulness....is what i love about this site....Thanks Bruce
Yes.. you gonna have some very subtle differences introduced by the adc and dac when playing back needledrops , but no matter how "broken" the rip is in respect to ADC and DAC .. its easy to hear and good enough to hear the changes you make in your vinyl system on different rips.
Its a snapshot of the vinyl system at the time
But in reality , most guys with vinyl like to play it back analog and do the whole ritual and not do needledrops
My devialet , which is considered really good re vinyl actually does everything , including RIAA , in the digital domain..it does an AD on the phono signal. Never tried vinyl thru it tho..im a digital roon/tidal man. Its easy to record a needledrop as well as it outputs digital.
Its a snapshot of the vinyl system at the time
But in reality , most guys with vinyl like to play it back analog and do the whole ritual and not do needledrops
My devialet , which is considered really good re vinyl actually does everything , including RIAA , in the digital domain..it does an AD on the phono signal. Never tried vinyl thru it tho..im a digital roon/tidal man. Its easy to record a needledrop as well as it outputs digital.
Somewhere some how the refusal to accept that the Rip is so close as to be indistinguishable remains strong .. Denial. Obfuscation?
Let's follow the logic here:
If we agree with those two premises and it is apparent from many honest posts here that we do, especially from some who" have been there and done that" I would add with excellent results. There aren't too many persons more qualified on Vinyl reproduction than MF. He's take is that they are so close as to be <insert the dreaded word here>
then we must conclude that the medium (digital) is as transparent as we get... Right?
Now many and that includes MikeL do believe Vinyl playback to be superior to straight ahead digital. That is fine. I will go as far as to grant you that for the sake of advancing the discussions. So likely Vinyl add something to the reproduction that digital doesn't (remember when that "thing" whatever it is, is already on Vinyl it is preserved by digital... Keep that in mind as proved by the transparency of the digital rips to their sources.. and their utter resemblance to the point of fooling everyone)... To repeat the contention of Blizzard, that "thing" can either synthesized or added. To me simple Logic.
Of course once we open our eyes and know what we are listening to, selective perception comes to play, we focus on some aspect and forget some, consciously or unconsciously. Those are our biases a play and if you allow me they are often honest. No pretense, no bad faith (although it can be present at times) simple psychology, we filter reality through our beliefs...
Can a rip satisfy the analog die-hard? It depends once he knows it is a rip psychological defenses/mechanisms are raised. Can he/she train him/herself to just chill and enjoy.. For some it is worth it, for many not and since this is a hobby, not a life and death affair.. No one has to. For my part I would welcome some wanted/needed pieces not available on digital or where the digital is atrocious compared to the original Vinyl. in the form of Vinyl rips ... I would like to perform some myself but Man! This is hard work.
In the here and now let's be honest and admit that the future is digital and it is looking mighty good...
Let's follow the logic here:
- Digital can preserve the differences between subtle Vinyl hardware. You change a cart or a TT it is apparent in the rip. Do we have that? YES! Check that one.
- A Vinyl rip will fool most seasoned audiophiles into thinking they are listening to Vinyl? Do we have that too? YES
If we agree with those two premises and it is apparent from many honest posts here that we do, especially from some who" have been there and done that" I would add with excellent results. There aren't too many persons more qualified on Vinyl reproduction than MF. He's take is that they are so close as to be <insert the dreaded word here>
then we must conclude that the medium (digital) is as transparent as we get... Right?
Now many and that includes MikeL do believe Vinyl playback to be superior to straight ahead digital. That is fine. I will go as far as to grant you that for the sake of advancing the discussions. So likely Vinyl add something to the reproduction that digital doesn't (remember when that "thing" whatever it is, is already on Vinyl it is preserved by digital... Keep that in mind as proved by the transparency of the digital rips to their sources.. and their utter resemblance to the point of fooling everyone)... To repeat the contention of Blizzard, that "thing" can either synthesized or added. To me simple Logic.
Of course once we open our eyes and know what we are listening to, selective perception comes to play, we focus on some aspect and forget some, consciously or unconsciously. Those are our biases a play and if you allow me they are often honest. No pretense, no bad faith (although it can be present at times) simple psychology, we filter reality through our beliefs...
Can a rip satisfy the analog die-hard? It depends once he knows it is a rip psychological defenses/mechanisms are raised. Can he/she train him/herself to just chill and enjoy.. For some it is worth it, for many not and since this is a hobby, not a life and death affair.. No one has to. For my part I would welcome some wanted/needed pieces not available on digital or where the digital is atrocious compared to the original Vinyl. in the form of Vinyl rips ... I would like to perform some myself but Man! This is hard work.
In the here and now let's be honest and admit that the future is digital and it is looking mighty good...
Frantz,
I can in now way comment on the SQ of rips as I have yet to hear one!
What I will comment on is an apparent flaw in your logic. Accepting your 2 premises you seem to have left out one possibility. That the original vinyl playback captured in the rip has added or contributed something that people prefer/like. The real test would be to see if people prefer/like a totally digital version of the same recording because it seems to me that you are only saying that the direct LP playback and a rip of that playback are indistinguishable, which is not the same as saying the digital version of that recording is superior or equal.
I can in now way comment on the SQ of rips as I have yet to hear one!
What I will comment on is an apparent flaw in your logic. Accepting your 2 premises you seem to have left out one possibility. That the original vinyl playback captured in the rip has added or contributed something that people prefer/like. The real test would be to see if people prefer/like a totally digital version of the same recording because it seems to me that you are only saying that the direct LP playback and a rip of that playback are indistinguishable, which is not the same as saying the digital version of that recording is superior or equal.
Nice post, Frantz, and that was great information from Bruce Brown about ADCs. If the future of digital is represented by vinyl rips, the dCS Rossini and by native quad DSD played over something like the NADAC, yes, indeed, the future is looking mighty good.
I am reminded about a story that a scientist friend of mine told me. A group of scientists told God that they had finally discovered how to create life. God asked them to explain and they told him that they took some dirt, they added some chemicals, they applied their science and after a while, sure enough, there was life. God was impressed. He then told them that they needed to get their own dirt.
What would you say is that "thing" about analog "that can be either synthesized or added"? What does it sound like and how can it be added? Has it already been done? We should not forget that analog, an extremely mature medium, is also still improving.
I am optimistic about the future of audio.
one minor correction.....never owned a Forsell tt.....we used my Rockport Sirius III turntable with my vdH Colibri XCP and Winston's 'Black Ebony' which was a precursor to the Miyajima products during this May 18th, 2008 session.
and......sure the converters are now better (I'd question 25% thou).....the vinyl is easily as much better too along the same lines.
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Peter
I have no idea what that "thing" is. Lately I have been so much into the Music that I only notice things that sound really bad, else I am having a heck of a time with (ducking) even mp3... when it is the only medium available
I have read here, that presented with microphones straight feed from the console and recorded on tape from the console microphones feed many preferred the tape to the straight feed! Let me replay that to you.. People seem to prefer a copy to the original! That would suggest that some of us prefer to add some "spices" to reality ... Would the spices so added contribute into more enjoyment for some? We need to identify those spices and add them to our recipe ... err... digital. That is what I am repeating again and again but is there a demand for that?
There is one prominent contradiction in the Market for Vinyl rip, even if the Licensing issue were to be taken care off: Who would be the users? Not the analog die-hard (those who refuse to have anything digital in their Audio systems) for sure and unlikely that digital-head would care for it either.
I have no idea what that "thing" is. Lately I have been so much into the Music that I only notice things that sound really bad, else I am having a heck of a time with (ducking) even mp3
... when it is the only medium available I have read here, that presented with microphones straight feed from the console and recorded on tape from the console microphones feed many preferred the tape to the straight feed! Let me replay that to you.. People seem to prefer a copy to the original! That would suggest that some of us prefer to add some "spices" to reality ... Would the spices so added contribute into more enjoyment for some? We need to identify those spices and add them to our recipe ... err... digital. That is what I am repeating again and again but is there a demand for that?
There is one prominent contradiction in the Market for Vinyl rip, even if the Licensing issue were to be taken care off: Who would be the users? Not the analog die-hard (those who refuse to have anything digital in their Audio systems) for sure and unlikely that digital-head would care for it either.
Hi fas42 ....
>>impact of the tracks<<
bingo, you hit the nail on the head ... b/c "impact"=dynamic range and/or lack of limiting/compression. This is real, it can be measured, and to my ears, easily the most telling attribute about ANY pressing, be it redbook, LP or hi-rez. In other words, you can rip any inferior pressing you desire, but it's not magically going to transform into a dynamic work of art, simply because you ripped it to hi-rez via this or that _______ ADC.
Machine Head HD Tracks (Abby Road remaster/reissue 75622)
{the following dynamic range specs are based on foobar DR plugin, measures from peak to average.}
1.HS...................L=11.4 R=12.0 (8.3/7)
2.MIAL................L=13.2 R=14.1 (8.1/8)
3.POH.................L=12.3 R=12.3 (8.6/6.6)
4.NB...................L=12.0 R=12.0 (8.7/7.4)
5.SOTW...............L=13.1 R=13.6 (9.7/8.6)
6.Lazy.................L=11.4 R=12.0 (9.4/8.6)
7.ST....................L=12.3 R=14.0 (8.2/9.1)
Interestingly enough, the best recorded track from the 25 anniversary reissues was a track called "When A Blind Man Cries" which went missing from original albums. Never Before was released as the LP's single (not Smoke) to promote MH, and Blind Man was on its B side. Other than that release, this track all but disappeared, not represented on any further orig or reissue, until 1998 (iirc), when it was added to the Abby Road remaster.
WABMC ..............L=9.9 R=10 (L=7.8 R=8.1 Glover remix)
The anniversary issue isn't all that bad, it's recorded decently enough, they certainly tamed the highs that many consider to be the Achilles Heal of early digital transfers/playback. The problem is, it's just too compressed and soft limited, which can be good for some systems and environments, but not my system, which only comes "alive" when replaying the >dynamic releases. That said, if I simply wish to listen to it at lower background volumes, or in a car, the remaster is the way to go ... and unlike the orig. it contains Blind Man.
Also interesting; Richie apparently was the one who demanded the track be left of the album, claiming it didn't fit into the scheme of the LP. He may have been correct, b/c it would have been the only "soft" track on an otherwise hard hitting R&R album. However, perhaps the song was about him.
Here are the lyrics ...
"When A Blind Man Cries"
If you're leaving, close the door
I'm not expecting people, anymore
Here me grieving, lying on the floor
Whether I'm drunk or dead, I really ain't too sure
I'm a blind man
I'm a blind man
And my world is pale
When a blind man cries
Lord, you know
There ain't a sadder tale
Had a friend once, in a room
Had a good time, but it ended much too soon
In a cold month, in that room
We found a reason, for the things we had to do
I'm a blind man
I'm a blind man
Now my room is cold
When a blind man cries
Lord, you know
He feels it from his soul
Written by Gillan, it reads like a good-bye letter to Richie, and given all the turmoil between the two to follow ... it rings more true today.
I consider Smoke to be Deeps Stairway, and I don't much like either ... Blind man is more my cup of tea.
Peter
I have no idea what that "thing" is. Lately I have been so much into the Music that I only notice things that sound really bad, else I am having a heck of a time with (ducking) even mp3
I have read here, that presented with microphones straight feed from the console and recorded on tape from the console microphones feed many preferred the tape to the straight feed! Let me replay that to you.. People seem to prefer a copy to the original! That would suggest that some of us prefer to add some "spices" to reality ... Would the spices so added contribute into more enjoyment for some? We need to identify those spices and add them to our recipe ... err... digital. That is what I am repeating again and again but is there a demand for that?
There is one prominent contradiction in the Market for Vinyl rip, even if the Licensing issue were to be taken care off: Who would be the users? Not the analog die-hard (those who refuse to have anything digital in their Audio systems) for sure and unlikely that digital-head would care for it either.
I agree Frantz. There is something, some spice perhaps. But there may be another possibility. It may be that something is lost with the digital recording process from the original through the mic or somewhere else in the process. Something is also lost with the straight mic feed, compared to live. Either the analog does not lose the same thing or it adds something, or perhaps both. And people prefer it when that something is added to the digital.
This was touched upon by Blizzard when he wrote that with the various filters in either HQPlayer or the NADAC, I can't remember, the listener can choose to hear whatever sound he wants. My friends and I tried that with the various filters and we could not find a filter that represented fully what the analog sounded like, so there is still work to do. Does this something replace some of what was lost or does it add something where nothing is missing? I'm just hypothesizing here for the moment, because I certainly do not know. Perhaps someone else knows and can explain better what is going on and why we prefer some things about the recording to the original mic feed.
Regarding a market for vinyl rips: I think archiving is one, and those who want to preserve their LPs by playing digital copies of them. But life is short, and it all takes time and next year the rips will be better, etc, etc. I have friends who love analog, but they also have digital in their systems. I do not think they are opposed to listening to rips on principle, especially if that rare recording is not available for purchase and only on obscure LPs. But, the quality and availability have to be better. If one already has large vinyl and CD collections, why bother with rips? It's an interesting question about where the market is. If someone figures that out, rips may become more popular.
Is this yet another silly "i think" crystal ball moment, void of any ACTUAL firsthand knowledge within this particular subject matter ... much like your prior 1 rip theory?
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