The official audio myth busting thread

[Blizzard]

Bit naughty but your using thier expectations against them, this ultimately will give more accurate results imo.

Yes if they get to the end of the 6/7 different digital formats and say non of them was vinyl than they can tell the difference.

Like I said long time ago it's really irrelevant as the bottle neck is not about difference per say it's about a constraint or perceived constraint digital has on people's enjoyment of music in real terms.

This place should be about helping audiophiles in thier journey, often for the guys they will not be able to afford a great vinyl setup and digital front end hence my original questions.

We are here, you more than me to help people get better music in thier homes for thier budgets.

It's fair either way. It will be what it will be. Finding out the answer to this will benefit all, especially them.

And by busting myths, this will help people get better sound in their homes for less. Because people will be better educated on what really matters. Most of the arguments we see on forums are because of misconceptions that are 100% false.

 

[Blizzard]

Well in fact most if not all conflict here is about points of difference that have very little to do with musical connection and a lot to do with misplace senses of assertion and confused ideas about what it means to be individual...

It's a joke as the disconnected luxury hi end market every one moans about is no more disconnected to musical enjoyment than the collective nature of this forum and the opinions of its members.

Yeah but not in Blizzard's corner. Only a bunch of down to earth music lovers looking for sensible solutions to achieve the best musical enjoyment for their hard earned dollar over here

 

[PeterA]

This sounds like a pretty good reason to me:

You can have a convenient iPad GUI to toggle through a vast selection of music, without any of the cost, maintenance, inconvenience involved with vinyl, with no loss in sound quality.

You still aren't grasping the concept here. If they are indistinguishable from each other, and confirmed by a panel of golden eared vinyl buffs, what is the point of having the turntable over the digital setup at home? Yes I understand that status, nostalgia, passion for cool mechanical apparatuses, etc is a valid reason. But if the results of the test prove the sound to be indistinguishable, then people can no longer claim that they prefer vinyl because of the sound. Or that the holy grail of sound reproduction comes from vinyl. It also proves that if the vinyl can be so accurately reproduced, the same would hold true while reproducing R2R or mic feeds.

Am I speaking in english here, or what is the issue with the comprehension? It's as clear as daylight to me.

Many, many vinyl LP versus CD comparisons have been done in people's systems. Some prefer vinyl, others prefer digital. These claims have been made since he CD first came out and the death of the LP was predicted. Perhaps we are closer now with the latest digital technology. If so, that would be great. Frankly, I'm surprised that the world is waiting for this modest group over at WBF to be the first to do such a comparison.

This conversation is sure to continue for years to come. Analog is a niche now and will continue to be. It is where a lot of music is and it gives many people great joy. I look forward to reading about the results of your test.

 

[spazmatron]

Many, many vinyl LP versus CD comparisons have been done in people's systems. Some prefer vinyl, others prefer digital. These claims have been made since he CD first came out and the death of the LP was predicted. Perhaps we are closer now with the latest digital technology. If so, that would be great. Frankly, I'm surprised that the world is waiting for this modest group over at WBF to be the first to do such a comparison.

This conversation is sure to continue for years to come. Analog is a niche now and will continue to be. It is where a lot of music is and it gives many people great joy. I look forward to reading about the results of your test.

I don't think it is niche anymore Peter, loads of kids have tt these days. They use MP3 and get thier home fix with vinyl. It's hard to let go of the love that can develop with using physical media. Vinyl gives you that physical connection that's more than just the sound quality, it also offers a young generation a certain feeling of legitimacy too alongside other positive feelings. It's a personal form if you like, one people seem to develop a relationship with outside of the significance of the music it's self.

Why do you love vinyl?

 

[Blizzard]

Many, many vinyl LP versus CD comparisons have been done in people's systems. Some prefer vinyl, others prefer digital. These claims have been made since he CD first came out and the death of the LP was predicted. Perhaps we are closer now with the latest digital technology. If so, that would be great. Frankly, I'm surprised that the world is waiting for this modest group over at WBF to be the first to do such a comparison.

This conversation is sure to continue for years to come. Analog is a niche now and will continue to be. It is where a lot of music is and it gives many people great joy. I look forward to reading about the results of your test.

The problem with all of the CD vs vinyl comparisons is the CD wasn't sourced from the vinyl. Every one of these tests are meaningless because the source was different. They could have been remastered different etc. You must make the copy from the vinyl, and the same turntable/phono stage to really see if the digital is transparent.

 

[Bruce B]

Here is a fun suggestion for a myth buster, Blizzard. You don't live far from Seattle. Visit Mike L. and Joel Durand. Take a video of yourself listening to their turntables and describe what you hear for the viewer. No controlled testing would be necessary.

He needs to go somewhere where there is a good vinyl playback rig AND the ability to capture/playback the recording in Quad DSD

 

[Blizzard]

He needs to go somewhere where there is a good vinyl playback rig AND the ability to capture/playback the recording in Quad DSD

Yes like your studio but not sure what you have for vinyl playback gear, but I'm sure you have all of the gear to bust these myths properly.

 

[TBone]

The problem with all of the CD vs vinyl comparisons is the CD wasn't sourced from the vinyl. Every one of these tests are meaningless because the source was different. They could have been remastered different etc. You must make the copy from the vinyl, and the same turntable/phono stage to really see if the digital is transparent.

K, done that, now what?

 

[Blizzard]

K, done that, now what?

If you make a digital copy of your vinyl and you can tell them apart, this means the gear/format your using for the recording and playback isn't transparent enough for the task. Try again with the Merging Horus/Hapi, and Pyramix workstation in quad DSD, and report back your findings.

 

[Gregadd]

If you make a digital copy of your vinyl and you can tell them apart, this means the gear/format your using for the recording and playback isn't transparent enough for the task. Try again with the Merging Horus/Hapi, and Pyramix workstation in quad DSD, and report back your findings.

Or... you are wrong. I think this belies any claim of neutrality...
Ultimately the futility of these tests.

 

[PeterA]

I don't think it is niche anymore Peter, loads of kids have tt these days. They use MP3 and get thier home fix with vinyl. It's hard to let go of the love that can develop with using physical media. Vinyl gives you that physical connection that's more than just the sound quality, it also offers a young generation a certain feeling of legitimacy too alongside other positive feelings. It's a personal form if you like, one people seem to develop a relationship with outside of the significance of the music it's self.

Why do you love vinyl?

I agree with this. Part of me really likes the ritual and the physical/mechanical nature of analog. I think that I understand about the motor spinning the platter at the correct speed and the cartridge and coils and tonearm and isolation etc. I also don't mind cleaning the LPs. A digital file from some unseen box and how it all works is a pure mystery to me. I do enjoy the collecting of physical media. These aspects are all part of why I like it. But I also really, really like the sound of it, and compared to the crappy, old digital CDP that I occasionally pull out to play my favorite CD's, my vinyl just sounds more real to me. It is palpable, both physically, and figuratively, when I hear the instrument being played in my living room.

I have a friend who has both and when he pulls out his iPad and swipes the glass to select some music, a strange thing happens. He listens to sections of tracks and spends a lot of time scrolling to find the next cool sounds. When he plays an LP for me, we usually set it up and play the entire side. It is relaxing and in that sense of time slowing down, it is more like hearing a live performance form a comfortable seat in the audience, and sitting there quietly, being in the moment. I suppose it is a bit like what Mindfulness teaches us.

I also prefer looking through my old photo albums to clicking on images in my computer. They are more real and can be held and passed around. Convenience is not critical and the older I get, the more I appreciate that the time and care needed to pursue these things is a luxury. Like having a warm cup of tea every afternoon.

I hope that answers your question about vinyl. I recently said similar things about why I like to sail, especially on a boat with a lot of wood (which requires maintenance). Time slows down and one is more in touch with his surroundings. Both experiences are real, one is just deeper. I once started a WBF thread on the vinyl/sailing analogy with interesting results.

I think you are right. Vinyl is not just a niche anymore. And it would be a mistake to think that this mature medium is not still improving, but in equipment and in recording and pressing techniques. I think it is a time to be optimistic about both vinyl and digital. Lucky us.

 

[Blizzard]

Or... you are wrong. I think this belies any claim of neutrality...
Ultimately the futility of these tests.

If golden eared vinyl fanatics can't tell the vinyl playing from the digital copy, then what would this mean? Would this mean today's digital isn't transparent?

 

[spazmatron]

I agree with this. Part of me really likes the ritual and the physical/mechanical nature of analog. I think that I understand about the motor spinning the platter at the correct speed and the cartridge and coils and tonearm and isolation etc. I also don't mind cleaning the LPs. A digital file from some unseen box and how it all works is a pure mystery to me. I do enjoy the collecting of physical media. These aspects are all part of why I like it. But I also really, really like the sound of it, and compared to the crappy, old digital CDP that I occasionally pull out to play my favorite CD's, my vinyl just sounds more real to me. It is palpable, both physically, and figuratively, when I hear the instrument being played in my living room.

I have a friend who has both and when he pulls out his iPad and swipes the glass to select some music, a strange thing happens. He listens to sections of tracks and spends a lot of time scrolling to find the next cool sounds. When he plays an LP for me, we usually set it up and play the entire side. It is relaxing and in that sense of time slowing down, it is more like hearing a live performance form a comfortable seat in the audience, and sitting there quietly, being in the moment. I suppose it is a bit like what Mindfulness teaches us.

I also prefer looking through my old photo albums to clicking on images in my computer. They are more real and can be held and passed around. Convenience is not critical and the older I get, the more I appreciate that the time and care needed to pursue these things is a luxury. Like having a warm cup of tea every afternoon.

I hope that answers your question about vinyl. I recently said similar things about why I like to sail, especially on a boat with a lot of wood (which requires maintenance). Time slows down and one is more in touch with his surroundings. Both experiences are real, one is just deeper. I once started a WBF thread on the vinyl/sailing analogy with interesting results.

I think you are right. Vinyl is not just a niche anymore. And it would be a mistake to think that this mature medium is not still improving, but in equipment and in recording and pressing techniques. I think it is a time to be optimistic about both vinyl and digital. Lucky us.

Nice to read this, thanks Peter you seem to be doing it right imo. What happens to us when we touch and feel things is very underrated and over looked. Mindfulness is the key, sometimes being forced into this state by lack of convenience does us good.

I only listen to full albums, while doing nothing else but listening.

Though bought up next to the ocean I can't be trusted with sailing boats though very much enjoy disappearing for a few hours swimming.

Can't be trust around vinyl either but I understand fully about the joy of the mechanics, I love steam engines for the same reason. Engineering you can relate to and physically be involved in, smell and feel.

 

[TBone]

If golden eared vinyl fanatics can't tell the vinyl playing from the digital copy, then what would this mean? Would this mean today's digital isn't transparent?

What if we could tell ... ?

 

[PeterA]

The problem with all of the CD vs vinyl comparisons is the CD wasn't sourced from the vinyl. Every one of these tests are meaningless because the source was different. They could have been remastered different etc. You must make the copy from the vinyl, and the same turntable/phono stage to really see if the digital is transparent.

Sure, I get that, Blizzard. They are meaningless to you given what your goal is. They are not meaningless to those who have legacy collections or want to see which format they prefer among the formats with a lot of available content. We can have a discussion or debate about which is more transparent. That will not change the issue that many of us have substantial LP and/or CD collections and enjoy listening to what we have.

I am open to you or anyone else convincing me that quad DSD is superior to vinyl when it comes to making a faithful copy of an original master tape. The result will not change my collection or cause me to abandon one medium and start from scratch to start another one with limited available titles, especially in an area which is notorious for creating new formats every couple of years. Quad DSD will be replaced with something even better and new recording standards will be created and multi channel systems are around the corner. It's all very exciting. When these technologies are available in friend's systems to enjoy, I will enjoy them. Until then, I will cue up my LPs and bathe in the luxury they provide.

If your goal is to change what people want to buy and then sell it to them, thus completely changing the industry, then that is a much greater challenge, it seems to me. It's a good thing you are still young.

 

[PeterA]

Yes like your studio but not sure what you have for vinyl playback gear, but I'm sure you have all of the gear to bust these myths properly.

Yes, Bruce has the legacy, and former standard bearer, SME Model 30 turntable, and Class A SS Pass Labs electronics. Perhaps even a tubed phono, but I can't remember. Bruce would seem to be in a good position to answer Spazmatron's questions.

 

[c1ferrari]

more likely to find a recording where there is a tape master and Quad dsd digital master from the same mic feed. so you are comparing native to format sourced recordings. one such recent recording is the Wave Kinetics Ilia Iten Debussy solo piano recording last spring in New York State.

Hi Mike,

Would you know if the mic feed was mixed? If so, ITB, i.e., digital, or OTB, i.e. analog?
IOW, AAA vs. AxD I'm presuming non-digital mics.

Thanks.

Sam

 

[Blizzard]

What if we could tell ... ?

That would simply mean that the gear/format used to make the copy isn't transparent enough

 

[Gregadd]

If golden eared vinyl fanatics can't tell the vinyl playing from the digital copy, then what would this mean? Would this mean today's digital isn't transparent?

You are not trail blazing Mike. The scores are likely to be in the mid range. Good (or bad depending on your perspective)enough for you to gloat but statiscally insignificant. You know that is the probable outime
That is why you predicted the outcome with such confidence.

 

[Blizzard]

Sure, I get that, Blizzard. They are meaningless to you given what your goal is. They are not meaningless to those who have legacy collections or want to see which format they prefer among the formats with a lot of available content. We can have a discussion or debate about which is more transparent. That will not change the issue that many of us have substantial LP and/or CD collections and enjoy listening to what we have.

I am open to you or anyone else convincing me that quad DSD is superior to vinyl when it comes to making a faithful copy of an original master tape. The result will not change my collection or cause me to abandon one medium and start from scratch to start another one with limited available titles, especially in an area which is notorious for creating new formats every couple of years. Quad DSD will be replaced with something even better and new recording standards will be created and multi channel systems are around the corner. It's all very exciting. When these technologies are available in friend's systems to enjoy, I will enjoy them. Until then, I will cue up my LPs and bathe in the luxury they provide.

If your goal is to change what people want to buy and then sell it to them, thus completely changing the industry, then that is a much greater challenge, it seems to me. It's a good thing you are still young.

The goal here is just to clear up misinformation so people know why things sound the way they do. Right now, many people just flat out think analog is better, without even considering the source may be the issue, or coloration's may be introduced that give the impression of being superior. Knowing why your vinyl sounds better, and knowing a digital copy of it can sound identical, won't make your existing collection any less enjoyable to listen to. But it will prove moving forward, the finest sound available with new recordings, as well as older transfers from analog tape, will be superior to vinyl. There will be no reason to acquire the vinyl version over the quad DSD, if you have a quad DSD capable DAC, unless it's just for reasons other than sound.


Beyond DSD 256 or 512, I'm not sure if it can even get better as format technology goes. This isn't new technology, it's been around since the 80's. It just wasn't practical due to file size. But today with cheap storage, it's a different story. If you have a quad DSD or especially DSD 512 capable DAC, you should be good for many many years as far as format support goes. The only other technology that may change in the DAC chips is if an MQA input is built into the chips. I had a talk with the head engineer of ESS about this a couple days ago. They just had a big meeting with Bob Stuart of Meridian at CES. Software like Roon will be able to decode MQA, and convert it to PCM so it's compatible with all PCM DAC's. However, if the MQA decoding is built into the DAC chips, it skips a layer of processing and allows for the best sound possible from the technology. But this won't be the best sound still. The only advantage to MQA, is the ability to send high resolution PCM from streaming services like Tidal with lower bandwidth. If you have an actual 24/192 copy of the same album on your hard drive, it will sound at least as good anyways. And of course DSD will sound even better, especially quad. So MQA is only beneficial for streaming.

And to add a bit more, anyone who has listened to a demo of MQA so far, hasn't heard it to it's full potential. This is because there hasn't been a chip manufacturer yet to build the decoding into their chips for best performance. It's a $250000 plus investment to do this, and if it happens won't likely be until 2017.

If MQA is implemented into DAC chips in the future, there will be another input on the left input block along with the DSD,DoP, PCM interface's called MQA.