Herzan/Table Stable "Active" Isolation table.

[Bill Hart]

Spirit~ what 'trial' gave the unit a less than stellar review here?
I remember when you were posting to Mike L's system page on the 'Gon and I asked you to set up your own system page.
Perhaps if you did so, others could contribute to that.

 

[rockitman]

This is a weird thread. It maintains full momentum when the proponents are praising it to the hilt, and grounds to a halt when another trial gives it less than a 5 star approval. And now Mike's tt/active shelf platform photos are reproduced pointlessly. Hasn't anyone other than Mike, Christian or me trialled it in their system. Personally I like it, but it doesn't produce sufficient step up in quality to justify it's cost.

Everyone's system is different....ymmv. I forgot to hit the active button the other night and was listening for a few minutes in passive mode. The musical experience seemed broken compared to what I was used to hearing. I hit the active button and all was well again. For me, it was money well spent.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Hi Whart, my posts 479 and 481 concluded active was an improvement, but not life changing for me as Christian and Mike find, so my trial "less than stellar", esp in respect of the massive cost outlay. And let me repeat again, this is not to diminish Christian's and Mike's findings. I just wish others would at least trial it, I feel I'm the slight odd one out here in entering a more lukewarm view. Still finding power/grounding issues are making the stellar improvements in my system rather than isolation. And yes, will get 'round soon to a systems page.
Myles, sorry if you find my post pointless, just felt as the only one having direct experience of trialling it other than Christian or Mike, my conclusion was that my less than stellar findings had less validity than theirs, with the resultant drop off in replies to the thread and my experience.
I'm going to get off contributing to this thread now, and leave it to the more positive proponents.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi Whart, my posts 479 and 481 concluded active was an improvement, but not life changing for me as Christian and Mike find, so my trial "less than stellar", esp in respect of the massive cost outlay. And let me repeat again, this is not to diminish Christian's and Mike's findings. I just wish others would at least trial it, I feel I'm the slight odd one out here in entering a more lukewarm view. Still finding power/grounding issues are making the stellar improvements in my system rather than isolation. And yes, will get 'round soon to a systems page.
Myles, sorry if you find my post pointless, just felt as the only one having direct experience of trialling it other than Christian or Mike, my conclusion was that my less than stellar findings had less validity than theirs, with the resultant drop off in replies to the thread and my experience.
I'm going to get off contributing to this thread now, and leave it to the more positive proponents.

Why would you? I don't think threads on a discussion forums should be all positive. I have tried Vibraplane under my TT and it made aworld of verifiable and measurable difference. IT didn't make any impact to my ears under electronics or even under a Burmester CD transport. I, also , have been and for a long time a proponent of power quality. I , for one, welcome such less than boosterish posts of products. A more balanced view of things for those of us that may be skeptical. keep it up.

 

[flat6]

just installed a TS-140 under my turntable.
which axis do "H1" & "H2" represent? this isn't mentioned in the manual...

 

[PeterA]

just installed a TS-140 under my turntable.
which axis do "H1" & "H2" represent? this isn't mentioned in the manual...

Congratulations on the Herzan. Sorry I can't answer your question, but could you describe what kind of turntable you have and if you hear a difference after installing the active isolation? Thanks.

 

[rockitman]

just installed a TS-140 under my turntable.
which axis do "H1" & "H2" represent? this isn't mentioned in the manual...

From Page 9 on the pdf
http://www.tablestable.biz/pdf/Manual TS-150+140 LP.pdf

The traces show velocity, but are not calibrated – the top
trace is vertical and the lower 2 traces show the horizontal
vibrations. H1 is parallel to the cables attached to the unit,
and H2 perpendicular to this axis. The time axis can be
changed by pushing the Enter button.
A higher index number N gives a slower display.
The approximate time per scan is 160 x 2N milliseconds.
Note: This function is not intended for measurement purposes and is not calibrated.
On using the system for the first time it is strongly recommended that you observe this signal,
with the isolation both Enabled and Off - it gives a good impression of how well the system is
operating.

 

[flat6]

Congratulations on the Herzan. Sorry I can't answer your question, but could you describe what kind of turntable you have and if you hear a difference after installing the active isolation? Thanks.

thk you PeterA. i run a Micro Seiki SX5000 Air turntable, & this platform replaces a passive Vibraplane 2210.
my switch was primarily for practical / functional reasons. my Vibraplane does not have self-levelling & required too much effort to manually re-level (note: my platform load is not centralized which causes platform to tilt as its air chambers lose air pressure). i've also felt the manual re-levelling process to be highly imprecise & difficult to repeat. this in turn undermines one's efforts with tonearm setup (ie. some of the tonearm's settings vary when the isolation platform is not completely leveled). i've had instances where heavy record clamps would cause the entire platform (along with everything atop of it) to tilt.

the TS-140 is a plug & play device. i'm amazed how easy it is to use & couldn't be happier with it.
its waveform observation display is great (never knew just how much external vibration the audio equip is actually exposed to).

from a sonic point of view, afraid i'm not able to give any feedback just yet.
my (outboard) motor sits separately on the component rack, & therefore requires a separate plinth to compensate for isolation platform's height.
the plinth i currently have is for the Vibraplane (ie, taller than the TS-140). need to get another one made 1st.

btw, my Vibraplane has been relocated & now supports an amp.

 

[flat6]

From Page 9 on the pdf
http://www.tablestable.biz/pdf/Manual TS-150+140 LP.pdf

hi rockitman, thks for the quote. don't know why i didn't notice this before.
my platform's H2 axis seems relatively active based on the waveform observation display.

 

[PeterA]

thk you PeterA. i run a Micro Seiki SX5000 Air turntable, & this platform replaces a passive Vibraplane 2210.
my switch was primarily for practical / functional reasons. my Vibraplane does not have self-levelling & required too much effort to manually re-level (note: my platform load is not centralized which causes platform to tilt as its air chambers lose air pressure). i've also felt the manual re-levelling process to be highly imprecise & difficult to repeat. this in turn undermines one's efforts with tonearm setup (ie. some of the tonearm's settings vary when the isolation platform is not completely leveled). i've had instances where heavy record clamps would cause the entire platform (along with everything atop of it) to tilt.

the TS-140 is a plug & play device. i'm amazed how easy it is to use & couldn't be happier with it.
its waveform observation display is great (never knew just how much external vibration the audio equip is actually exposed to).

from a sonic point of view, afraid i'm not able to give any feedback just yet.
my (outboard) motor sits separately on the component rack, & therefore requires a separate plinth to compensate for isolation platform's height.
the plinth i currently have is for the Vibraplane (ie, taller than the TS-140). need to get another one made 1st.

btw, my Vibraplane has been relocated & now supports an amp.

Flat6, I think one solution that you could consider for your separate motor and turntable issue is to put both on a much larger plate of steel and that on top of the Herzan, if it can handle the extra weight. I did this for my SME 30/12 and its motor controller to preload the Vibraplane to its max limit for better isolation. An added benefit is that the motor controller is now also isolated. Of course, my motor and belt are on the turntable unit so I don't have this leveling issue that you have with the Micro. If your table and your motor are not precisely leveled and in the same relationship at all times, your speed will be effected.

I know what you mean about the self-leveling Vibraplanes versus the passive ones. The distributor/dealer Sounds of Silence recommends only the self leveling ones for use with turntables and the passive ones with amps and CD players. I have one passive unit under an amp, but it is hooked up to my compressor, so I just hit the switch briefly once a week to get it to the proper height. That is much easier than using the bicycle pump.

Once you have it all sorted out, I would appreciate reading your observations about how the Herzan compares sonically to the Vibraplane.

 

[flat6]

Flat6, I think one solution that you could consider for your separate motor and turntable issue is to put both on a much larger plate of steel and that on top of the Herzan, if it can handle the extra weight. I did this for my SME 30/12 and its motor controller to preload the Vibraplane to its max limit for better isolation. An added benefit is that the motor controller is now also isolated. Of course, my motor and belt are on the turntable unit so I don't have this leveling issue that you have with the Micro. If your table and your motor are not precisely leveled and in the same relationship at all times, your speed will be effected.

hi PeterA, adding a steel plate atop the Vibraplane is a very good idea. I've read air-pressure based vibration isolation platforms typically achieve max efficiency when they're loaded at least 80% of max load capacity.

I tend to make changes to my hifi system in spurts, even though this isn't the most ideal way to go about it.

recently purchased (but not rcvd) a VPI SDS & dual-motor flywheel assembly to experiment with (I've always liked the idea of having a flywheel on motor's side to even out the motor's rotation). this dual-motor flywheel assembly appears taller than my Micro RY5500 motor, so I'll not be able to place it on the same horizontal plane. I'll also need to have the actual motor unit in hand before determining plinth height.

my other reason for getting the Herzan platform (which I hadn't mentioned) is/was I'd ordered a Schröder LT tonearm some time back (Mar 2013). this arm - which I hope will ship shortly - needs a rigid & completely leveled base to function. my passive Vibraplane just isn't going to work in this context.

not sure how helpful my comments / observations will be when everything does come together (there would be too many variables).
I am nevertheless satisfied with the Herzan platform just based on its functional merits. I'd consider anything else an added bonus.

 

[steamboatbob]

Hello all. Found this thread and would like to ask if anyone has ever used any silicone isolation pods or pads. I found some on a new site and thought I would see if anyone has used them. They seem to be really unique, made of multi-layered, multi-density silicone and a review says they do an amazing job. Check them out at http://www.siladyne.com and see what you think. Thanks.

 

[Steve Williams]

Hi Bob

welcome to WBF

Interesting technology but what I find amazing is the absurdly low prices of these devices..

It would be worth buying some to compare to others at far higher prices.

Do you have some interest in this company or are you recommending this as a user

 

[Priaptor]

Hi Bob

welcome to WBF

Interesting technology but what I find amazing is the absurdly low prices of these devices..

It would be worth buying some to compare to others at far higher prices.

Do you have some interest in this company or are you recommending this as a user

I was originally looking at very expensive isolation platforms from:

http://www.minusk.com/content/produ...-isolation-platforms-benchtops-isolators.html

was turned on to these new Townshend stands and pods and love them. Incredible product for a fraction of the cost and I do not have any affiliation with Max Townshend other than being a very happy end user

http://www.townshendaudio.com/hi-fi...t-vibration-isolation/seismic-isolation-pods/

 

[MylesBAstor]

Hello all. Found this thread and would like to ask if anyone has ever used any silicone isolation pods or pads. I found some on a new site and thought I would see if anyone has used them. They seem to be really unique, made of multi-layered, multi-density silicone and a review says they do an amazing job. Check them out at http://www.siladyne.com and see what you think. Thanks.

I haven't tried those but never had any success using sorbothane or other elastomers under the gear in my system. Just muddied everything up, blunted attacks, shaved off the upper octaves, etc. YMMV as they say

 

[theophile]

I haven't tried those but never had any success using sorbothane or other elastomers under the gear in my system. Just muddied everything up, blunted attacks, shaved off the upper octaves, etc. YMMV as they say

Lots of firms use elastomers including Monaco, Walker and HRS. It's obvious that there is more to them than Sorbothane and the cumulative effects of a melange of them might be worth investigating if it doesn't break the bank. I doubt immensely that it would be anywhere near as effective as the discussed active isolation solutions.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Lots of firms use elastomers including Monaco, Walker and HRS. It's obvious that there is more to them than Sorbothane and the cumulative effects of a melange of them might be worth investigating if it doesn't break the bank. I doubt immensely that it would be anywhere near as effective as the discussed active isolation solutions.

I think the question referred to their under equipment not as at least with GP as damping the plinth. Think that's a different thing altogether with energy transfer paths. The HRS is also using an elastomer in combination. There was of course the ole Mod Squad accessory combining a elastomeric puck and tiptoe too.

Have you ever tried an elastomeric product under any of your components?

 

[theophile]

I think the question referred to their under equipment not as at least with GP as damping the plinth. Think that's a different thing altogether with energy transfer paths. The HRS is also using an elastomer in combination. There was of course the ole Mod Squad accessory combining a elastomeric puck and tiptoe too.

Have you ever tried an elastomeric product under any of your components?

GP has elastomer between the shelves and the frame of the stand.

I've never tried Sorbothane. I did use a product that was never intended as an isolation accessory. It was semi rigid and semi-pliant and it occurred to me that it might work. I used multiples of them under my turntable for about 3 years. The whole shebang improved the sound but was nowhere near what I ended-up achieving when I really understood the limitations of the materials I was using, and changed them.

I use a combination of cup and ball(in direct contact with the under side of the GT 2000)sitting on a piece of granite, acrylic shelf under the granite, and 21 Clearaudio Magix underneath the acrylic shelf for vertical isolation. Very touchy, move a lead or cable and the equilbrium is altered(it's floating on a magnetic field, every touch changes the pitch,roll or yaw of the platform). There are two possible compliances. The pitch roll and yaw of the acrylic shelf held above the supporting magnetic field and the freedom of the GT 2000 to roll around in the cups. Small changes to the roll pitch and yaw affect things largely because with each small change to the pitch roll and yaw, the turntable rolls on the ball bearings toward the same direction. This turns a tiny weight shift into a major weight shift. Small changes become huge effects. Very touchy but even in its still to be improved construct, the results over the last year have proved more than encouraging and finally justify my intuition about the potential of this manner of coupling plus isolation.

I adore the ability of the motor/bearing/speed control circuitry utilised in the Yamaha GT 2000. If I live long enough, I'd love to replinth one and attempt to really optimise this method by commissioning a custom plinth with integral cup and ball coupling/ isolation inbuilt. I'd like to experiment with aligning the different centers of gravity of the different components(motor/ platter, plinth and support) so that movements be they rotations or otherwise occur around a single center of gravity. Pierre Lurne held this as a tenet of his design and I know from firsthand experience that aligning centers of gravity of suspended components lends a relaxed calm, a grace under fire, to the reproduction

I will be trialling a different shelf material eventually. I'm not entirely happy with acrylic. I'd like to try a carbon fibre aluminium honeycomb sandwich next.

 

[LL21]

Just a question...what happens if you put a massive Herzan table under a big speaker...like a big Wilson? Is it even possible for it to function with such levels of vibration and weight? Just curious.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Just a question...what happens if you put a massive Herzan table under a big speaker...like a big Wilson? Is it even possible for it to function with such levels of vibration and weight? Just curious.

here's the deal; a Herzan is 500x stiffer than any passive device since it can 'stop' in 10-20ms.....passive devices have no ability to stop, they resonate....the Herzan's have 'essentially' no resonance. so while a passive footer is always a matter of whether it's compatible and complimentary, the active device is never adding resonance. it's merely reducing feedback and noise.

the Herzan AVI Series can be configured up to 9000 pounds. it uses at least 2 separate modules and one control unit with a 'stiff' shelf on top. not sure I want a tall heavy speaker (my MM7' s are 750 pounds-7 feet tall each) sitting on a shelf on two modules. and the whole 'look' would likely be a deal stopper for me.

the TS-300 stand alone table can handle up to 660 pounds. and it also has self leveling....whereas the AVI series does not. and the TS-300 is fairly low profile, 4.7 inches tall, still workable in terms of height for most speaker systems. the AVI series would be at least 6-8 inches tall which would be a challenge to integrate into a system.

so sitting on a concrete floor the TS-300 (or 300 pound capacity TS-140) would be the ultimate. the top plate can be drilled and tapped to attach the speaker if you desire.

in the back of my mind I've always considered trying one under speakers. my problem is that both my MM7 towers are 750 pounds, and the AVI direction is not quite as elegant in use as the all-in-one TS series.

but there are lots of under 660 pound speakers in rooms with concrete floors that are candidates.