Objectivists - what might be wrong with this label/viewpoint!!

...and in the meantime we just figure that all that stuff which we opine is superior, but which currently measures as inferior, has somehow hit on these cues to human audio perception by accident or by ear?
Tim, the cues used in audio perception are in our nature - our auditory perception tell us what sounds belong to what physical objects & does a pretty good job of it - it is part of the necessary survival role that has evolved our perceptions. Your question does bring us back to my first post. Would you say that somebody developing an audio product by measurement alone is correct or mistaken in this approach?
And that most of the stuff (digital, SS, not expensive enough) that measures great, but is not high-end approved, has somehow, accidentally, gotten all these perceptual cues terribly wrong?

That seems to be the audiophile argument.

Tim
Well my argument is that auditory perception has it's own criteria for judging how unreal a reproduction is & we are only beginning to ascertain what these criteria might be. As per the Head movement paper, this researched aspect is at a very low level (microseconds timing differences &/or decimal DB amplitude difference). If we don't know the criteria & level that our perception expects then yes, we can probably end up with an audio device that measures great as per current measurement sets but perceptually sounds bad. I wouldn't exaggerate this & say "gotten all these perceptual cues terribly wrong?" - we don't know what are the important cues as far as perception is concerned & we don't know what the JND is for these cues.

I don't buy the argument "anything that we can perceive will show up in the low level measurements" for the reasons I've already given - because no model of auditory perception is being used & therefore the wrong test signals & wrong analysis are the result. As I said, since the discovery of DNA's molecular structure through xray diffraction, we haven't continued to use xray diffraction to try to analyse the differences between DNA between different species - we haven't used electron microscopy either - we have used a technique that is appropriate to uncovering the nucleic acid sequences (which, btw only gets us a small bit of the way towards understanding how biological objects are formed from the underlying DNA structure).
 
.
Yes, it's not a problem for the brains perceptual engine but I'm suggesting that it is a problem to see this in measurements - is that clearer?

Too bad about the decades of science that falsify the above claim.

False hypothesis are a dime a dozen, but they are unfortunately the currency of the mystical world of high end audio subjectivism. Subjectivists tend to seal themselves into logic tight boxes by denying wihtout adequate evidence or reasoning, the basic tenets of science.
 
Too bad about the decades of science that falsify the above claim.

False hypothesis are a dime a dozen, but they are unfortunately the currency of the mystical world of high end audio subjectivism. Subjectivists tend to seal themselves into logic tight boxes by denying wihtout adequate evidence or reasoning, the basic tenets of science.

Do you have anything specific to post or just general hackneyed, well worn, "objections"?
 
Fair enough and we have no qualms there on the bold-ed above. As for what constitutes the threshold of "significance"we can have a meaningful debate.
One question Do we agree that we cannot perceive a change of 0.001 dB? If yes then we can go on, else we may have to drop it ...

Also I would agree with your last sentence with some slight modifications if you allow me ...

Currently we cannot anticipate all their sound properties with the usual set of current measurements ...

Well, I do not have a calculator with me - as soon as I have one I will address the 0.001 dB.

But we can agree with the all and usual set. although it is my belief that even the unusual set will not tell all the truth about cables - stereo reproduction is not a system, but an entity with too many variables to be fully described by measurements.
 
Do you have anything specific to post or just general hackneyed, well worn, "objections"?

Please remind me of anything but general hackneyed, well worn, "objections" that you have brought to this discussion.

You see its the subjectivists that object to just about everything that most people accept.

Subjectivists object to:

Science
Technology
Audio Cables
Audio Amplifiers
Loudspeakers
DACs
ADCs
CDs
Recordings other than LPs and analog tapes which strangely enough are full of audible defects
Digital in general
Switchmode power supplies and power amplifiers
AVRs
Modest priced but fine performing audio gear

...and just about anything else but their mystically chosen favorite audio gear, which seems to change from week to week.

Talk about a bunch of unconscionable objectors!
 
Currently we cannot anticipate all their sound properties with the usual set of current measurements ...
And can you tell me what would be the impetus for doing measurements other than the usual set & what would you be looking for with these different measurements? I can see, plainly exhibited on this thread, an inertia to anything but the existing set of measurements arising from the attitude "any differences will show in the measurements".
Bruno's example of doing a different measurement arose from "something was not quite right" but he doesn't disclose what this was - was it something he heard, some measurement glitch he spotted - we don't know?
 
Please remind me of anything but general hackneyed, well worn, "objections" that you have brought to this discussion.
OK, as it's the pantomime session I'll play along - "oh no I haven't" :)
 
And can you tell me what would be the impetus for doing measurements other than the usual set & what would you be looking for with these different measurements? I can see, plainly exhibited on this thread, an inertia to anything but the existing set of measurements arising from the attitude "any differences will show in the measurements".
Bruno's example of doing a different measurement arose from "something was not quite right" but he doesn't disclose what this was - was it something he heard, some measurement glitch he spotted - we don't know?

I think you misunderstand the position pretty profoundly, but carry on.

Tim
 
I think you misunderstand the position pretty profoundly, but carry on.

Tim

Sure, but it would be a strange situation if we didn't disagree at some point in a thread :)

Do you agree with the attitude here of "any differences will show in the measurements"? Probably should have said "in the standard set of measurements"
If you don't agree with this then what measurements do you suggest should be used?
If you do agree then why would you go outside the standard set of measurements & what would be this set for measuring an amplifier, for instance?
 
Sure, but it would be a strange situation if we didn't disagree at some point in a thread :)

Do you agree with the attitude here of "any differences will show in the measurements"? Probably should have said "in the standard set of measurements"
If you don't agree with this then what measurements do you suggest should be used?
If you do agree then why would you go outside the standard set of measurements & what would be this set for measuring an amplifier, for instance?

This is what I think you misunderstand. I don't think anyone in this thread is resistant to any further measurements. The nature...even the existence of those measurements is speculative; no one has made any concrete suggestions. What's to resist?

Tim
 
This is what I think you misunderstand. I don't think anyone in this thread is resistant to any further measurements. The nature...even the existence of those measurements is speculative; no one has made any concrete suggestions. What's to resist?

Tim

What I said was that there's an intertia shown on this thread - I didn't say resist - two very different things although the outcome is usually the same. Resistance is an active process & inertia based on inactivity.

I'm sure you understand the difference - Inertia is pretty much summed up in your "no one has made any concrete suggestions. What's to resist? "
 
Well, I do not have a calculator with me - as soon as I have one I will address the 0.001 dB.

But we can agree with the all and usual set. although it is my belief that even the unusual set will not tell all the truth about cables - stereo reproduction is not a system, but an entity with too many variables to be fully described by measurements.

Seems like a strange idea. You listen to sound produced by speakers. The sound produced by those speaker is directly from the electrical signal applied to them. If we can measure that electrical signal (and we sure can do that) then what variables get left out?
 
Seems like a strange idea. You listen to sound produced by speakers. The sound produced by those speaker is directly from the electrical signal applied to them. If we can measure that electrical signal (and we sure can do that) then what variables get left out?

You seem to misunderstand what is a measurement. You do not measure an electrical signal in a general sense, you choose a few relevant parameters of the signal and measure them. The main question is which parameters are really correlated to sound quality in a stereo system and what is the minimum number of them that are needed to fully describe the sonic properties of the device. BTW, if you are so sure we can do that, please tell us exactly how to do it.
 
Is there really a suggestion that one could not measure the difference between an orchestra with an oboe playing and the same orchestra with the oboe removed?

Nope!
 
And can you tell me what would be the impetus for doing measurements other than the usual set & what would you be looking for with these different measurements?

Since audio signals are two dimensional (time and amplitude) there is only a very short list (N=4) of things that can go wrong. They are: Linear Distortion (FR and phase), Nonlinear Distortion (IM, THD, jitter), random Noise (usually due to thermal effects) and Interfering Signals such as hum. The means for measuring all of these problems have been known for decades and in modern times are easy enough to actually measure for yourself with an investment that is by high end audio standards chump change. Most good modern audio gear reduces all of these potentially destructive influences to orders of magnitude below audibility. Worrying about these things is for chumps.

The real problem is the typical subjectivist audiophile's lack of scientific knowledge and corresponding distrust for science. Most of these people, even most leading audiophile subjectivist journalists lack the credentials and knowledge required to understand why the previous paragraph is true and what it means.

Subjectivists generally loathe proper listening tests (they are taught to do so by self-serving sales hacks disguised as technicians). Among them there are a few posers (at least one who posts here frequently) who give proper technology and listening tests zbundent lip service, but still as a rule don't actually benefit from them. Since the alternative is sighted evaluations with a proven huge propensity for false positives, these people have locked themselves up in a logic tight box. Let them waste their time and their money with products like these: https://sites.google.com/site/jkciunas/ciunas-dac
 
Is there really a suggestion that one could not measure the difference between an orchestra with an oboe playing and the same orchestra with the oboe removed?

I think that there are many people posting here who really think that one cannot measure the difference between an orchestra with an oboe playing and the same orchestra with the oboe removed.

I object to being able to do so as being a criteria for the validity of audio measurements on the grounds of logic and reason, not its actual impossibility.

The argument that this cannot be done is as old as the hills. I think that I first heard it at a local audio store named Detroit Audio when I was about 14 years old. At the time (1960) it was before digital audio, and more significantly before the widespread use of FFT-based analysis. One or the other or both are strong tools for accomplishing the task that is being proposed.

It is also true that the belief that one can always clearly hear individual instruments playing in an orchestra is another one of those illusions that is fostered by ignorance and sighted evaluations. Reality is that many musical instruments can sound very much alike (examples being: Organ versus a lot of things and Human Voice versus a lot of things) and not be as easily picked out as many seem to believe.
 
Subjectivists generally loathe proper listening tests (they are taught to do so by self-serving sales hacks disguised as technicians). Among them there are a few posers (at least one who posts here frequently) who give proper technology and listening tests zbundent lip service, but still as a rule don't actually benefit from them. Since the alternative is sighted evaluations with a proven huge propensity for false positives, these people have locked themselves up in a logic tight box. Let them waste their time and their money with products like these: https://sites.google.com/site/jkciunas/ciunas-dac

Thank you for your attempts to damage my business - I find such negative comments about my products (which you have never heard) to be at complete variance with what Bruce Brown said here when he auditioned my previous DAC (JKDAC32) which has since been replaced by the better sounding Ciunas DAC -

" I really had to nit pick to find anything wrong with this converter. Remember, right behind me was the best of the best, so I knew what it had to do to impress me.
All in all.. I'd say it's the best inexpensive converter I've heard yet. I'd put it up against anything under $5k. We'll be getting the Mytek 192/DSD DAC in here again and would love to directly compare the 2 head to head. From what I remember, the Mytek has its work cut out for it! Great job John!!"
 
Thank you for your attempts to damage my business -

Any time! ;-)

I find such negative comments about my products (which you have never heard)

Why would I need to listen to it? Are you claiming that it provides audible benefits that can't be measured?

If you sent me one, I'd listen to it, but more to the point I'd measure it. But the comment about never hearing it seems reminiscent of the common anti-science subjectivist taunt that one gets if one gets too aggressive about finding out reliable truths.

to be at complete variance with what Bruce Brown said here when he auditioned my previous DAC (JKDAC32) which has since been replaced by the better sounding Ciunas DAC -

Please indicate the reliable and bias-controllled means by which you support your claim that the new product "sounds better".

As things stand Mr. Keny you seem to just have admitted that like me, this Bruce Brown person (no widely known reliable authority that I have ever heard of) has never heard the product that you are touting here and now in the service of your own financial and possibly other personal interests.

So, if Mr. Brown is the authority that you seem to be claiming that he is, then he is no better prepared to comment on your current product than than I am, in accordance with your very own words!
 

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