Vote today... Mitt Romney or Barack Obama

Mitt Romney or Barack Obama

  • Mitt Romney

    Votes: 30 44.8%
  • Barack Obama

    Votes: 37 55.2%

  • Total voters
    67
  • Poll closed .
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Not open for further replies.
By contrast, the GOP was trying to appeal to the informed, initiated voter??? :D

Knee jerk response to losing: blame voter stupidity and hurricane sandy.

Reality: Romney's strategy was entirely predicated on voter stupidity (i.e. assume they would believe his budget numbers add up), and it did not work.

Reality: Obamacare is deeply flawed, but it is primarily motivated by a desire to fix a broken system. The status quo is screwed up. If you don't like it, come up with a better plan. There is a huge window of opportunity. Vouchercare just does not cut it.

Not even Romney's strategy, but the deflated, failed strategy of the American Conservative movement that started in the 80s. Some things worked for awhile. And God knows the left needed that pull toward the center. But the conservatives just kept pulling, for 40 years, until they became the radicals, preaching the same ideas repeatedly, even in the face of the failure of those ideas, not just to draw the right demographics, but to deliver.

The GOP will decide to turn a deaf ear to it's own shrill voices and move back toward its roots in conservatism, or be marginalized, perhaps even extinct. We'll see.

Tim
 
If given the resources an opportunity, which one of you could have run against president Obama and win? How popular will your suggestions be with the voters whom you need to get you elected?
 
Not even Romney's strategy, but the deflated, failed strategy of the American Conservative movement that started in the 80s. Some things worked for awhile. And God knows the left needed that pull toward the center. But the conservatives just kept pulling, for 40 years, until they became the radicals, preaching the same ideas repeatedly, even in the face of the failure of those ideas, not just to draw the right demographics, but to deliver.

The GOP will decide to turn a deaf ear to it's own shrill voices and move back toward its roots in conservatism, or be marginalized, perhaps even extinct. We'll see.

Tim

Tim,

Maybe this is more appropriate...

In all things political, you can't even fight an opinion with the facts. :)


The truth is that 99.9% of all politicians don't care if you live or die. Regardless of the ideology you endorse, those politicians who purport to embrace it will only look after their own interests. It doesn't matter if the ones screaming the loudest are Occupy Wall Street or Tea Party activists, they are still in control. They will tell you whatever you want to hear, and the end result will never be what you expected, except somehow you'll get screwed in the deal. Bank on it.

As far as fixing the economy, it won't be done. Neither side has the desire, or the stomach, for it. It's simple math, but they don't like simple math, so both sides concoct exotic ways of calculating virtually everything. The upside is that you always have the option to pick a side to blame when it becomes totally unworkable.

Don't expect Nirvana anytime soon because it ain't happening.

If given the resources an opportunity, which one of you could have run against president Obama and win? How popular will your suggestions be with the voters whom you need to get you elected?

You have to lie and promise the moon to get elected. The truth is way too much for the average voter. He is far too naive for that.
 
Tim what is really disturbing is I am not sure the Republican leadership regards the current state of affairs as a failure. Equally disturbing is the Democrats went back to ignoring the South. I thought the policy of asking everyone for their vote was the right course. In order for the few to rule the many the majority must be divided.

During the final debate Romney said something that I will paraphrase. I don't want war. I don't want to kill people. I want people to work, raise thier families and enjoy life. Unfortunately for him he represented a party that does not know how to express that in their policy positions. Until they do they are going to have a tough time.
I mean how are going to win when you lose the Big Bird vote?:b
 
Please do have look at this and comment ...

[video]http://mediamatters.org/video/2012/11/09/david-frum-gop-has-been-fleeced-exploited-and-l/191294[/video]
 
It's all said and done now, at least for the next 4 years, so I might remind both Democrats and Republicans that 4 years hence the landscape will have changed. They both need to recognize this if they have any chance of getting elected then. Immigration is on the rise and the coloured face of your nation will look differently in 2016. Like it or not, you better address their concerns and tone down the ultra-conservative views as the vast majority of newcomers will have no stomach for it. Fight as you might, but you'll lose......yes another war lost! ;)
 
Obamacare is deeply flawed, but it is primarily motivated by a desire to fix a broken system.

Obamacare has very little to do with quality healthcare, however it certainly has a lot to do with the size and scope of government. Obamacare ensures that healthcare is increasingly and inevitably paid for by the government. In doing so, it fundamentally transforms the relationship between the citizen and the state. I give Obama and the Democrats a lot of credit; they were willing to pass a deeply unpopular, incredibly flawed bill because are in it for the long-haul and are willing to take a few mid-term shellackings to advance their long term agenda. They understand that enlarging the state is likely to benefit the political party that believes in and expands the reach of government. The recent election results validate the success of that strategy and demonstrate how over the long-term, society can be transformed (or deformed depending on your point of view) by government.

Republicans are wrong to blame uninformed voters (indeed most studies demonstrate that Republican voters are somewhat better informed than their Democratic counterparts), Hurricane Sandy or the Media. Even with an eloquent candidate, it's increasingly difficult to sell a message of self-sufficiency and freedom to a populace that is increasing willing to trade freedom for government security. As Benjamin Franklin warned, "they who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety".

Unfortunately for Progressives, they are wedded to a redistributive model designed in the 1930's that is economically unsustainable. Much of the post-election commentary on both sides of the political spectrum has focused on the emerging Democratic/Progressive coalition. While this coalition is composed of many disparate interest groups, they largely share with a single common interest; sustaining their share of government largesse. Margaret Thatcher once quipped "The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money". (BTW, I in no way think Obama or the majority of Democrats are socialists--they are statists.) Once the money runs out, these disparate groups are likely to turn on each other as each special interest claims a piece of the shrinking pie.

The American electorate has joined the rest of the Western world by voting for the irrational hope that we can continue to sustain ourselves in a lifestyle that we are unwilling to earn. During the past four years, we borrowed ~ $5 trillion dollars for which we received ~$1 Trillion of GDP growth. In other words, for every $1 of economic growth, we borrowed $5. There is only one entity in the world willing to bankroll that rate of return and it's not China. The US Treasury is now forced to sell ~3/4's of it's debt to the Federal Reserve. I would posit that a Ponzi scheme based on one spouse selling to another is unlikely to end well.
 
Jazdoc

I respect your point of view. I disagree with a good portion of it , a matter of opinion. Some of the views I find condescending like the notion of "populace" for people who have lost their jobs and find themselves in dire predicament but let's put this aside, let it pass. What is the Alternative? What is the socially conscious thing to do? A civilized society has a responsibility for the welfare of those with less than ideal life conditions don't you think? As a matter of fact the stability of any nation requires a certain level of well-being of most of the citizen.. What to do then? Do we let them die if they lose their job? Not go to school if their parents are unfortunate enough to not being able to pay the dear tuition we see across the US? What to do.. I don't proclaim that you and I have the answers but understanding the severity and the difficulties may sharpen our ways to vote out of this situation ... So as a good audiophile I am all ears. :)
 
Obamacare has very little to do with quality healthcare, however it certainly has a lot to do with the size and scope of government. Obamacare ensures that healthcare is increasingly and inevitably paid for by the government. In doing so, it fundamentally transforms the relationship between the citizen and the state. I give Obama and the Democrats a lot of credit; they were willing to pass a deeply unpopular, incredibly flawed bill because are in it for the long-haul and are willing to take a few mid-term shellackings to advance their long term agenda. They understand that enlarging the state is likely to benefit the political party that believes in and expands the reach of government. The recent election results validate the success of that strategy and demonstrate how over the long-term, society can be transformed (or deformed depending on your point of view) by government.

Republicans are wrong to blame uninformed voters (indeed most studies demonstrate that Republican voters are somewhat better informed than their Democratic counterparts), Hurricane Sandy or the Media. Even with an eloquent candidate, it's increasingly difficult to sell a message of self-sufficiency and freedom to a populace that is increasing willing to trade freedom for government security. As Benjamin Franklin warned, "they who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety".

Unfortunately for Progressives, they are wedded to a redistributive model designed in the 1930's that is economically unsustainable. Much of the post-election commentary on both sides of the political spectrum has focused on the emerging Democratic/Progressive coalition. While this coalition is composed of many disparate interest groups, they largely share with a single common interest; sustaining their share of government largesse. Margaret Thatcher once quipped "The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money". (BTW, I in no way think Obama or the majority of Democrats are socialists--they are statists.) Once the money runs out, these disparate groups are likely to turn on each other as each special interest claims a piece of the shrinking pie.

The American electorate has joined the rest of the Western world by voting for the irrational hope that we can continue to sustain ourselves in a lifestyle that we are unwilling to earn. During the past four years, we borrowed ~ $5 trillion dollars for which we received ~$1 Trillion of GDP growth. In other words, for every $1 of economic growth, we borrowed $5. There is only one entity in the world willing to bankroll that rate of return and it's not China. The US Treasury is now forced to sell ~3/4's of it's debt to the Federal Reserve. I would posit that a Ponzi scheme based on one spouse selling to another is unlikely to end well.

That pretty much sums it up.

Please do have look at this and comment ...

[video]http://mediamatters.org/video/2012/11/09/david-frum-gop-has-been-fleeced-exploited-and-l/191294[/video]

Media Matters as a link pretty much defines itself. Nothing there is objective. It's really simple to understand why when it comes to them; follow the money. That goes for a lot of other online agenda driven sources, not just those on the Left.
 
Jazdoc

A civilized society has a responsibility for the welfare of those with less than ideal life conditions don't you think?

I have a suspicious feeling that jazzdoc doesn't think that. Instead like so many here, he would argue that the status quo is acceptable and that BIG corporations, purely driven by profit, are the most appropriate to be making health care choices for the populace.

As a matter of interest, I have several younger people working for me, lets call them the new generation, vs. my generation.. the "me" generation. NOT one of them was anything more than completely turned off by the GOP platform and all that it represents. The consensus of opinion within this group is that they cannot wait to dismantle the GOP and all that it stands for and be done with that kind of party once and for all. Don't believe me, just go out and talk to this generation yourself.
 
Maybe you should take crash course on money laundering. Super pac.
 
I have a suspicious feeling that jazzdoc doesn't think that. Instead like so many here, he would argue that the status quo is acceptable and that BIG corporations, purely driven by profit, are the most appropriate to be making health care choices for the populace.

As a matter of interest, I have several younger people working for me, lets call them the new generation, vs. my generation.. the "me" generation. NOT one of them was anything more than completely turned off by the GOP platform and all that it represents. The consensus of opinion within this group is that they cannot wait to dismantle the GOP and all that it stands for and be done with that kind of party once and for all. Don't believe me, just go out and talk to this generation yourself.

Interestingly I had a conversation with a 14 year old boy and a 26 year old woman who told me the thought of voting for Romney
was sickening. They understood what was at stake. The 14 year old comes from a 1% background, the 26 year old is a graduated student
of modest means.

Common sense crosses all boundries.
 
Maybe you should take crash course on money laundering. Super pac.

I don't need the course because I know you are right on that one! They're all out to get you, but I said that already, didn't I?
 
That pretty much sums it up.



Media Matters as a link pretty much defines itself. Nothing there is objective. It's really simple to understand why when it comes to them; follow the money. That goes for a lot of other online agenda driven sources, not just those on the Left.

Mosin

The link is to Joe Scarborough "Morning Joe" show on MSNBC in which David Frum ( A Republican) had among other things, this comment: " Republicans Have Been Lied To And Exploited By A Conservative Entertainment Complex" Please do follow the link ... Interesting and to me truthful comment when you witness the dismay of Fox News particularly Karl Rove who came to believe in his own untruths on Election Night.
 
Tim what is really disturbing is I am not sure the Republican leadership regards the current state of affairs as a failure. Equally disturbing is the Democrats went back to ignoring the South. I thought the policy of asking everyone for their vote was the right course. In order for the few to rule the many the majority must be divided.

During the final debate Romney said something that I will paraphrase. I don't want war. I don't want to kill people. I want people to work, raise thier families and enjoy life. Unfortunately for him he represented a party that does not know how to express that in their policy positions. Until they do they are going to have a tough time.
I mean how are going to win when you lose the Big Bird vote?:b

Nice attempt to humanize Romnoid. All year he was talking about invading Iran. How sweet that he has become such a Dove. Maybe he should put a flower in his hair.

He wants people to work? Just like when he saddled companies with debt, extracted fees, and cost tens of thousands of jobs?
 
Mosin

The link is to Joe Scarborough "Morning Joe" show on MSNBC in which David Frum ( A Republican) had among other things, this comment: " Republicans Have Been Lied To And Exploited By A Conservative Entertainment Complex" Please do follow the link ... Interesting and to me truthful comment when you witness the dismay of Fox News particularly Karl Rove who came to believe in his own untruths on Election Night.

Karl Rove wouldn't be in the list of guys I respect.

I believe some of you guys have made the mistake of confusing me with what you define as a conservative. Maybe, just maybe, I am someone who isn't married to either ideology. I am more of a pragmatist who isn't afraid to deconstruct either side, and it is my honest opinion that both are equal culprits when it comes to selling snake oil. The sad fact, however, is that the side that won this time has a non-solution that will further take the country down a path to ruin. Neither side is willing to face the sad truth that we have spent more than we can repay. Instead, one side promises more than ever while the other side promises to take us back to sweeter times while maintaining the status quo. Neither option is viable.

From a purely fiscal standpoint, all the push-button social issues are moot ones because the wolf is at the door. That fiscal cliff they keep talking about is very real, and neither side has an acceptable answer. So, now what?

I'm reminded of the Pogo quote, "We have met the enemy, and they are us."
 
From a letter sent to our newspaper by a local physician:

The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (aka Obamacare) began with the back-room deal-making, last-minute arm-twisting, the unprecedented distortion of congressional procedure and the final vote of 219 to 212 in the House - a relatively narrow margin considering the total Democratic control of Congress at that time. Obamacare survived a Supreme Court challenge by an even narrower 5-to-4 vote, on the basis that the individual mandate is a tax, despite the president's insistence that it is not a tax.

I wonder if any legislator actually read the entire 2,700-page monstrosity before passing the law. Buried within it is the requirement that all doctors enrolled in Medicare must re-enroll. One of the conditions of re-enrollment has chilling Orwellian overtones - the government must have direct access to the medical practice's bank account. I pleaded with Medicare for an exemption. Since the clinic was "nonparticipating" with Medicare, we received no payments from the government but instead collected from patients, using the discounted Medicare fee schedule. Medicare then would reimburse patients. Since the clinic did not deal directly with the government, why should the government have access to its account? I was told there would be no exceptions.

Further complicating the situation is the facts that the clinic sees a lot of visitors and that some people over 65 continue to work and have commercial insurance in addition to Medicare. It would be so simple if, in cases of dual insurance, the commercial insurance comes first. But it depends on the size of the patient's company. If the employer has more than a certain number of employees (40, I believe), then commercial insurance comes first. Below that number, Medicare comes first.

Too often, a problem arises when a patient mistakenly tells us that the commercial insurance is primary and is given the insurance claim form to send to his or her insurance. The insurance company, not being the primary carrier, then forwards the claim to Medicare for processing. This automatically generates a letter from Medicare threatening the clinic with a $2,000 fine since regulations - Section 1848(g)(4) - dictate that the claim must be sent directly to Medicare by the clinic.

I have always ignored those threats because in order to collect the government will have to take me to court and I will prevail since it is not my fault that the clinic was provided with the wrong information. But can you imagine if the government had direct access to my account? $2,000 would be taken out each time an inadvertent mistake is made. I will not be able to pay the clinic's rent or meet my payroll. I may have to close the clinic and lay off all my employees.

I refused to re-enroll. In January, I received a letter saying that my Medicare billing privileges had been deactivated. This meant that Medicare patients no longer would be reimbursed. Consequently, I have referred all Medicare patients to the a Medical Group, which owns its facilities and is large enough to afford to participate in Medicare. Broken is Barack Obama's campaign promise of four years ago that you can keep your doctor.

Politicians and bureaucrats have managed to subdue and subjugate what was once a respected and noble profession. The threat of fines and sanctions for any infraction of the myriad government regulations has essentially criminalized the practice of medicine. In the depersonalized jargon of the bureaucrats, a physician is not a doctor but just a provider; a patient is not a patient but a covered life. The sacred doctor-patient relationship is split asunder when the government wedges itself between the doctor and the patient. The danger here is if the physician places the interests of the government before the interests of the patient. With Obamacare, the government's desire to be in control pre-empts the individual patient's right to choose between various treatment options.
 
Obamacare has very little to do with quality healthcare, however it certainly has a lot to do with the size and scope of government. Obamacare ensures that healthcare is increasingly and inevitably paid for by the government. In doing so, it fundamentally transforms the relationship between the citizen and the state. I give Obama and the Democrats a lot of credit; they were willing to pass a deeply unpopular, incredibly flawed bill because are in it for the long-haul and are willing to take a few mid-term shellackings to advance their long term agenda. They understand that enlarging the state is likely to benefit the political party that believes in and expands the reach of government. The recent election results validate the success of that strategy and demonstrate how over the long-term, society can be transformed (or deformed depending on your point of view) by government.

Republicans are wrong to blame uninformed voters (indeed most studies demonstrate that Republican voters are somewhat better informed than their Democratic counterparts), Hurricane Sandy or the Media. Even with an eloquent candidate, it's increasingly difficult to sell a message of self-sufficiency and freedom to a populace that is increasing willing to trade freedom for government security. As Benjamin Franklin warned, "they who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety".

Unfortunately for Progressives, they are wedded to a redistributive model designed in the 1930's that is economically unsustainable. Much of the post-election commentary on both sides of the political spectrum has focused on the emerging Democratic/Progressive coalition. While this coalition is composed of many disparate interest groups, they largely share with a single common interest; sustaining their share of government largesse. Margaret Thatcher once quipped "The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money". (BTW, I in no way think Obama or the majority of Democrats are socialists--they are statists.) Once the money runs out, these disparate groups are likely to turn on each other as each special interest claims a piece of the shrinking pie.

The American electorate has joined the rest of the Western world by voting for the irrational hope that we can continue to sustain ourselves in a lifestyle that we are unwilling to earn. During the past four years, we borrowed ~ $5 trillion dollars for which we received ~$1 Trillion of GDP growth. In other words, for every $1 of economic growth, we borrowed $5. There is only one entity in the world willing to bankroll that rate of return and it's not China. The US Treasury is now forced to sell ~3/4's of it's debt to the Federal Reserve. I would posit that a Ponzi scheme based on one spouse selling to another is unlikely to end well.

Although plenty to disagree with, some astute observations and at least an attempt to propose a rational argument rather than blaming our ailments on a surplus of welfare moms. Few comments:
1. Although an ever expanding public sector is not a sustainable model for society, keep in mind no single model for society is sustainable. Society evolves and if there is a feedback loop and effective mechanism for self correction the show can go on for quite a while "reset" before some sort of reaclibration takes place (war, revolution or major crisis).
2. Even if you accept some of your premises, the GOP simply does not offer a better or more sustainable alternative. If anything their policies will accelarate the demise of US society and global hegemony as we know it. Keep in mind most globally dominant societies fail as a result of military overreach.
3. Japan has been selling debt to itself for decades, has the highest debt / GDP ratio in the world, borrowing at very low rates, and still going at it after decades. This game can go on for quite a while. Apres nous le deluge.
4. What effectively is happening is this. Let's say you have a pie that is worth $100 trillion and 200 million people hold $500,000 worth of coupons representing claims on a slice of the pie. Now you add 5 trillion in debt and generate 1 trillion in growth. This means our 200 million people not hold 105 billion worth of coupons, but the size of the pie is only $101 trillion. We are still a little more rich (the pie has grown a bit), but the valuation an distribution of coupons is all screwed up. Eventually the size of the pie and nominal value of coupons gets so out of whack you have a crisis or inflationary episode to recalibrate. This process creates turmoil, winners and losers. But keep in mind, the pie is still growing and no real tangible assets are destoyed. There is no reason this necessarily leads to some armageddon scenario. It may or it may not.
5. In the long run we're all dead (Keynes)
 
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