Zero Distortion: Tango Time

[jeff1225]

Jeffrey, my good mate here Blue58 has an exemplary sound running Duos Omegas off his own design 45 tubes amps. We listen to a fair amount of rock and electronica on them, and they want for v little.

My Uno's were pretty good for all types of music IF, and it was a big IF, you were in the sweet spot. My current speakers are much better and you don't have to keep your head perfectly still for the best sound.

The Duo's (much better than the Uno's) in the Alma back room were very wide and you stat in the "kind of" nearfield. The set up was strange but credit to Alex and his team for making this room sound absolutely amazing.

 

[jeff1225]

No, his room is large enough but he chooses not to have the bass channels if I understood correctly. This made me wonder what is going on there and if there is something I am missing. The response would be similar to what I have posted or maybe 10hz-20hz lower knee than mine depending on the room and the midbass crossover but still it would be expected that a lot would be missing. After all the lowest channel working is a 110hz cutoff mid-bass horn.

I really think that the choice of music (99% classical) makes the Gamma's work for Tang without the subs. The Gamma's midbass horn must have no hard cut off and just roll off naturally. That's how the midbass of the Avantgarde Trio's work.

 

[Stacore]

I am not astonished that some people prefer vinyl to tape - tape is like digital in the sense that we can change very little in its reproduction, while vinyl allows us to deeply modify/process the signal to our preferences.

V interesting observation Micro!
Cheers,

 

[microstrip]

Once again these were not subs but the bass channels so it does not compare to adding subs to a speaker. It is like not using the bass woofers on the speaker itself

In such case should we admit that people are maybe preferring vinyl systems that manipulate some particular zones of the spectra to subjectively compensate the lack of low bass?

 

[microstrip]

(...) For such music I would be very happy with an EMT (at least one modded like Tang's)

Tang,
Can we know what are the modifications? As far as I understand there is very little to modify in a standard EMT 927 in perfect condition, except providing the shock-absorber frame and the rack.

 

[asiufy]

Why were they nowhere near as fun for classical?

Al,

I could walk just a few meters and hear two extremely different, albeit equally satisfying systems, with very different characteristics, with their own pros and cons, so for me it was easy to establish a comparison.
*IN COMPARISON*, that horn system didn't have the imaging capability of the other two (cone) systems. And because the speakers were just a few feet off the back wall, the depth just wasn't there either.
Part of the fun (for me) in classical music, is the layering of the orchestra, and that was not as clearly defined in that system.
Also, one of the big "pros" of a horn is the high efficiency, and dynamics were, of course, amazing there. But in music that's already pretty frickin' dynamic to begin with (DR20+) like most classical, the cones are just as amazing. So, for rock, usually less dynamic recordings, the horn extract every little bit of detail and nuance in the performances, no matter how compressed, and that's quite intoxicating.
In regards to the depth, you *can* get amazing depth with horns, but you need the space, which we didn't have in that back room. We did have a pair of Unos in our main room, and the soundstage was exquisite, and we have also set up a Duo Mezzo in a hotel room, and it too was amazing.

 

[asiufy]

There was something very special going on in that back room with the Blue Duo Omega's and Audiopax amps. I could have listened to that system forever.

Hi Jeff!

Glad you enjoyed them Unfortunately, AG gets a bad rep around here, as people prefer the more exotic stuff. But after doing the rounds in Munich, AG is still my horn of choice (even though AG show very poorly in Munich).


cheers,
Alex

 

[asiufy]

My Uno's were pretty good for all types of music IF, and it was a big IF, you were in the sweet spot. My current speakers are much better and you don't have to keep your head perfectly still for the best sound.

The Duo's (much better than the Uno's) in the Alma back room were very wide and you stat in the "kind of" nearfield. The set up was strange but credit to Alex and his team for making this room sound absolutely amazing.

Thanks again, Jeff.
That AG was old, so the bass setup was done old school, painstakingly so, adjusting levels, listening, etc. It took quite a while to find a setting that worked great for most of the music, as it was very easy to over or undershoot.

 

[MadFloyd]

I'm late to the party - just read Ked's report and this thread (I wasn't expecting it for a few more weeks).

Ked, very good report - very fun to read, thank you!

Other that the interesting report, this thread is interesting for the following takeaways:

• Tang's Kronos table has been all but abandoned.
• Apparently you can spend more than a few hundred dollars on certain LPs. I never see these for sale (at least not on eBay) and I frequently buy Decca ED1s. I must be looking in the wrong (or right ) place.
• Shane doesn't think the SME 3012R is good for rock or techno - seemingly because it lacks good bass (or is it both frequency extremes?) and dynamics.
• I'm not the only one who thinks the Genesis Classic records re-issues sound dull.

 

[Tango]

My point is that considering you are comparing top cartridges, tonearms and turntables, a comparison of each of them with tape played in a top machine, that is supposed to be a step above in the sound reproduction hierarchy , would be very meaningful, almost mandatory.

Common guys. You all assume I am Santa Claus. There is limit and social manner in doing things in one's place. Four days of Ked's switching carts, arms, if you know how curious he was, already way too much for any of you guys here can bear. I am the Master Zen of patience. I even hired a tonearmguy to do the job and took care of him for a day because I had to work and things to take care. It was all at my curtesy. Four days five carts three tts with three arms and switching. We are lucky he could cover all that without being sloppy.

I didnt let him compare phonos due to what I mentioned in other post. I also could not have played tape for him because I did not have a long enough interconnect cable to connect my tape machine to pre. I am waiting for Kuro in appropriate length to arrive. Yes, I do have tapes of the same album that can compare to vinyls. But it didnt happen. Bonzo knows and very careful in proper methodology you guys like to put into question so much. So no need to question him on those regards. Whether he could do as suppose to is different matters. The room is mine not his.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[Tango]

This was what I wrote about EMT and Ayon phono.

"I like the EMT better. I think it is the lesser color of the two and I like the four phono inputs with various adjustable features. I had both on CMS rack before playing with Techdas and 927. Transparency and resolution of the two are about the same."

I didnt say that the two had different level of transparency.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[Tango]

About the bass horns of my speaker system. Pls just get over it, it will remain mysterious to you guys because you were never in my room. The corssover can be adjust from 50hz upto I dont know where 150hz maybe? I had it at 130 hz before ddk and I decided to take them off altogether.

The main reason for taking the bass horns off the $300,000 speaker system only could come from sound. Again you guys were not in the room to hear the trade off and final result. Of course I know what I miss. It is exactly like ddk said. I lost some sense of boundary and majesticness that my bass horn used to provide. But the sound I have now still frequently made Bonzo jumped of the listening seat and did the silly dance to Orchestra pieces. He only listened to classical except for one jazz the General sent me. If he listened to my kind of music like ddk did, he would fully understand and totally backed up the decision ddk and I made.

Why didnt I try moving adjusting bass horns in my room before taking them off? The answer is this is not a dedicated listening room where I can do or change any configuration of the room. It is an office space. My staffs come in and out all the time. Moving my speaker system around is limited by its space, door entrance, practicality of people having meeting in my room. Ralph the designer of Cessaro and I know full well this speaker system could do a lot more if I have a 7m x 9m size room that I could move things however I want. Then I will really hear its full range at its potential.

And of course, ddk said the system could go way beyond if I changed to Lamm..hahaha .

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[microstrip]

Common guys. You all assume I am Santa Claus. There is limit and social manner in doing things in one's place. Four days of Ked's switching carts, arms, if you know how curious he was, already way too much for any of you guys here can bear. I am the Master Zen of patience. I even hired a tonearmguy to do the job and took care of him for a day because I had to work and things to take care. It was all at my curtesy. Four days five carts three tts with three arms and switching. We are lucky he could cover all that without being sloppy.

I didnt let him compare phonos due to what I mentioned in other post. I also could not have played tape for him because I did not have a long enough interconnect cable to connect my tape machine to pre. I am waiting for Kuro in appropriate length to arrive. Yes, I do have tapes of the same album that can compare to vinyls. But it didnt happen. Bonzo knows and very careful in proper methodology you guys like to put into question so much. So no need to question him on those regards. Whether he could do as suppose to is different matters. The room is mine not his.

Kind regards,
Tang

Dear Tang,

Please note that I am no way debating the experiment, my remarks and questions are triggered by the analysis Ked and other people writes of it.

IMHO in such a varied experiment in a short time, questions on the methodology are natural in a forum where debates usually transcend the main subject of the thread - I still have a few that y I will present if the tide of thread goes in that direction.

All WBF members should be thankful for your extremely kind collaboration in these listening tests. And now I think most of us are waiting for your future opinions on tape versus vinyl!

 

[Tango]

I'm late to the party - just read Ked's report and this thread (I wasn't expecting it for a few more weeks).

Ked, very good report - very fun to read, thank you!

Other that the interesting report, this thread is interesting for the following takeaways:

• Tang's Kronos table has been all but abandoned.
• Apparently you can spend more than a few hundred dollars on certain LPs. I never see these for sale (at least not on eBay) and I frequently buy Decca ED1s. I must be looking in the wrong (or right ) place.
• Shane doesn't think the SME 3012R is good for rock or techno - seemingly because it lacks good bass (or is it both frequency extremes?) and dynamics.
• I'm not the only one who thinks the Genesis Classic records re-issues sound dull.

Dear Ian,

I am a 80's techno fan. I grew up with it.

My system sucks at techno!

My B&O system in car is excellent at techno, house, rock, hiphop. I dont need to pay a million bucks for them to sound good exciting and fun. You should hear my friends car system. Just unbelievable. My adrenarine shot up so high I was gonna have a heart attack having fun with those music in his car.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[Tango]

Once again these were not subs but the bass channels so it does not compare to adding subs to a speaker. It is like not using the bass woofers on the speaker itself

Dear Kodomo,

You are right. In my case it is almost like I steped myself down from a GammaII to Beta level Cessaro. Pretty crazy huh .

I will put them back when I have a new listening room.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[kodomo]

Having the Cessaro Gamma II’s in your office is already crazy enough I have no objection to what you do, it’s your system, your office, your choice. I was just wondering if I was missing something and you have compensated for the bass channels somehow.

For next time you may try what I do. My preamp has 4 mono outputs. Volume can be adjusted differently for pairs of outputs. If I like, I can turn down or turn off bass channels or change the relative volume of the horns and bass. I know the “right” setting but I can choose to listen in a way I prefer that is not right sometimes. Like for electronic music sometimes I turn the bass up when there are friends or me and my wife feel like having a party

 

[bonzo75]

I'm late to the party - just read Ked's report and this thread (I wasn't expecting it for a few more weeks).

Ked, very good report - very fun to read, thank you!

Other that the interesting report, this thread is interesting for the following takeaways:

• Tang's Kronos table has been all but abandoned.
• Apparently you can spend more than a few hundred dollars on certain LPs. I never see these for sale (at least not on eBay) and I frequently buy Decca ED1s. I must be looking in the wrong (or right ) place.
• Shane doesn't think the SME 3012R is good for rock or techno - seemingly because it lacks good bass (or is it both frequency extremes?) and dynamics.
• I'm not the only one who thinks the Genesis Classic records re-issues sound dull.

100s?

The Kogan Beethoven violin concerto on Columbia sax regularly goes for around 5k GBP. You can go to popsike.com and look up any piece, say ED1, and sort by price.

Properly sourced test pressings go for more than that.

There is an Oistrakh Scottish fantasia ED1 on the vinyl_house_uk auction that has already been bid up to 700 GBP, with 5 days to go.

 

[kodomo]

Well Kogan's go for crazy prices for sure. I have the testament reissues and as I do not have those great pressings to compare, I already am in heaven. They sound better than most of the stuff even with the reissues. They cost somewhere between 20usd to 40usd...

 

[bonzo75]

Well Kogan's go for crazy prices for sure. I have the testament reissues and as I do not have those great pressings to compare, I already am in heaven. They sound better than most of the stuff even with the reissues. They cost somewhere between 20usd to 40usd...

I don't like the testament at all. Performance is great. If anyone wants mine, never played, just opened to test sonics on the first 5 mins, please ask. Bought for 40 euro sealed will let go for 30

 

[kodomo]

I don't like the testament at all. Performance is great. If anyone wants mine, never played, just opened to test sonics on the first 5 mins, please ask. Bought for 40 euro sealed will let go for 30

Nooooo! don't let me know about the faults/shortcomings of these pressings The performances are so good, I completely forget about the pressings. They are not bad if you do not compare them. As long as I do not hear the better first pressings, I will stay sane and not spend thousands of dollars on them... (feels the slippery slope)