What's Everyone Reading

[Priaptor]

• https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/making-sense-of-robert-e-lee-85017563/

Thanks for the synopsis. The article pretty much hits the high points of the issue of evaluating Lee in today's context. My one quibble may be the value the writer is placing of the loss at Gettysburg when indeed the real beginning of the end was the Battle of Vicksburg. By no means am I mitigating the Battle of Gettysburg as it was THE battle for Union.

While I have read many good books on the Battle of Gettysburg, my favorite is (DUH) "Gettysburg" by Sears. I love history books where you can follow maps, see how things actually developed and this is one of them. If you ever have time (BORING for many) visiting the Battleground and following some of the more engrossing battles on foot is the best learning experience. I have done this at many of the battlegrounds so you can get a direct look and "feel".

While the writer of the article you quote talks about the foibles of Lee at Gettysburg, which is true, he knew he had to take risks he normally wouldn't have. He has lost the Mississippi, lost most of his railways and telegraph communications. The number of men at his army were dwindling and the North was going to "win" just by attrition. Whether or not his chaotic approach was the result of his current circumstance or just bad planning will be debated but no doubt a combination of the two.

Some of my favorite books, for those who are interested in American History:
1. Gotham: A History of NYC to 1898 (AMAZING) by Burroughs and Wallace if you enjoy NYC history and want to read a huge book
2. Washington's Crossing by Fischer (Paul Revere's Ride was also excellent but his best was Washington's Crossing)
3. Every single book by John Ferling, especially Setting the World Ablaze & a Leap in the Dark
4. Undaunted Courage by Ambrose
5. Hamilton by Chernow (as good as Hamilton was that is how bad, IMHO, Chernow's Washington: A life was). However I plan to read his Grant.
6. Joseph Ellis (Founding Brothers and The Sphinx my favorites).
6. April 1865 by Winik
7. Bunker Hill by Philbrick (his Mayflower was more amazing but just not my cup of tea).
8. Manhunt by Swanson, as I have indicated elsewhere, IMHO, the best coverage of the Lincoln Assassination and the hunt for Booth I have ever read.
9. McCullough: I have read almost every book of his, am not a huge fan, with the exception of The Great Bridge and The Johnstown Flood, which I think are his two best even though 1776 and Adams are his two biggest claims to fame, neither one of which I was crazy about. A choice between 1776 and Washington's Crossing, IMHO, the latter is a better and more interesting read.
10 . The Last Stand by Philbrick. Fantastic book and anyone who has gone to the site of Little Bighorn or is planning on going, this is a must read.
11. Battle of Brooklyn by Gallagher. This is actually my favorite battle of the Revolution, one of the most influential and the ONE that no one writes about. This is about as good as it gets. I had private communications with Professor Fischer, pleading with him to write a book about The Battle of Brooklyn, but he had no interest and recommend I do it, LMAO. You can imagine how much fun I was as a kid dragging my pals around Brooklyn, retracing the Battle as well as other historical sites in and around NY. The life of the party, NOT.
12. Saratoga, two books by Luzader and the second by Ketchum.
13. Ratification by Maier

The above are potpourri of some of my favorites over the years. All of these writers give very different perspectives, Ellis probably the most controversial because of his "issues" but regardless of political stances, etc, all of the above books are very insightful, well written and amazingly informative for those who have an interest. There are many more I can recommend, specifically about the Revolution, NYC in particular and Lewis and Clark who are my biggest heroes.

Sorry to those I am boring but since the topic of a part of American History came up and since it is my "first love", even more than audio, I figured I would list some of my favorites.

 

[NorthStar]

Before I posted that particular link/article, I've read several more.
I tried to post one of the best; there are so many of them.

History is important, that's part of what defines us today. ...American history, world history.

 

[Priaptor]

Before I posted that particular link/article, I've read several more.
I tried to post one of the best; there are so many of them.

History is important, that's part of what defines us today. ...American history, world history.

You bring up a point that shouldn't be lost, "history defines us". A funny thing happened the other day when I was watching the World Cup and some of the games were taking place in Sochi, the bunker and summer retreat of Stalin. They took a little break in between games and went to Stalin's retreat and met with the curator who gave a tour. She was pointedly asked what her views of Stalin was and she replied that despite his ruthless ways, he was responsible for Russia becoming a "great country" and that despite his heinous acts it is "our history" that can't be erased.

Unfortunately, here in America, we are witnessing the erasure of much of our history. Those taking part in ripping down statues, debasing monuments/battlegrounds and historical sites (and figures, including some of our Founders/Framers) are doing it in many cases in states of anarchy, without any government sanction and the claim that these things "belong in a museum rather than on public display"; this is nothing more than propaganda as there is no intention for "museums". We are witnessing the erasure of our history. History has good and bad and is interpreted differently by many but we should never erase it, no matter how offensive to some.

I pointed out the expulsion of Jews by Grant in General Order No 11 from Kentucky, Tennessee and Mississippi. No one seems to even know about this egregious act of his. However, even though I am a Jew and find his acts against Jews and his egregious views of Jews in general to be despicable, I can see him in the context of which he lived and appreciate his historical significance and greatness despite his foibles along with his incredible successes. That IS HISTORY and we can't erase it or modify it but learn from it.

 

[NorthStar]

We remember our history, out heritage, the good with the bad, we still learn about history today, to be better societies, to not repeat past mistakes, to learn from them.

If we erect a statue to honor a priest, a football coach, etc., and that we learn later on that they were children rapists, would you like to keep those statues and honor the people they represent?

I'm not an historian, I'm not a war expert, I'm not a psychologist, I'm not the one who judge others by their accomplishments, what they brought to the world, to their countries, to humanity. I'm simply learning about history over time and what wasn't said yet, what has been kept secret, and what is known.

We honor the men and women who brought peace, harmony, humanity, good things to their country and everyone. We don't erect statues of men and women who violated humanity through wars, tortures, dictators, rapists, killers, liars, bandits, fake priests, fake soldiers, fake generals, fake cops, fake judges, fake presidents.

Learning about our past history and the people who made it is good for the brain, learning about what they truly did to people in secrets is even better. That's real evolution. It makes easier to build a better tomorrow.

 

[jazdoc]

After you read that, try April 1865 by Jay Winik, one of my favorites. Despite the revisionism of today’s world, the book demonstrates just how magnanimous Grant was during Lee’s surrender and how Lee, as a result of his dignity, love for his troops and desire for unity at The War’s end, more than anyone, prevented the continuation of the Civil War through a more prolonged guerilla war. Lee unfortunately, in today’s world has gotten a really bad wrap.

I’m now reading “Lincoln’s Last Trial” and enjoying it immensely.

April 1865 is a fantastic, important book. Will add "Lincoln's Last Trial" to the list.

 

[jazdoc]

We remember our history, out heritage, the good with the bad, we still learn about history today, to be better societies, to not repeat past mistakes, to learn from them.

If we erect a statue to honor a priest, a football coach, etc., and that we learn later on that they were children rapists, would you like to keep those statues and honor the people they represent?

I'm not an historian, I'm not a war expert, I'm not a psychologist, I'm not the one who judge others by their accomplishments, what they brought to the world, to their countries, to humanity. I'm simply learning about history over time and what wasn't said yet, what has been kept secret, and what is known.

We honor the men and women who brought peace, harmony, humanity, good things to their country and everyone. We don't erect statues of men and women who violated humanity through wars, tortures, dictators, rapists, killers, liars, bandits, fake priests, fake soldiers, fake generals, fake cops, fake judges, fake presidents.

Learning about our past history and the people who made it is good for the brain, learning about what they truly did to people in secrets is even better. That's real evolution. It makes easier to build a better tomorrow.

One of the inherent problems with the current Orwellian infatuation with only seeing history with the current lens of postmodern thought is where to stop? Do you destroy all the federal buildings in West Virginia named for former Klansman Harry Byrd? Do we level the remaining Greek and Roman ruins because they were slaveholders? There is great danger is severing the present from the past; one of the reasons I enjoy reading history and biographies. By our natures, we are imperfect and products of our times.

 

[dminches]

Unfortunately, here in America, we are witnessing the erasure of much of our history. Those taking part in ripping down statues, debasing monuments/battlegrounds and historical sites (and figures, including some of our Founders/Framers) are doing it in many cases in states of anarchy, without any government sanction and the claim that these things "belong in a museum rather than on public display"; this is nothing more than propaganda as there is no intention for "museums". We are witnessing the erasure of our history. History has good and bad and is interpreted differently by many but we should never erase it, no matter how offensive to some.

I pointed out the expulsion of Jews by Grant in General Order No 11 from Kentucky, Tennessee and Mississippi. No one seems to even know about this egregious act of his. However, even though I am a Jew and find his acts against Jews and his egregious views of Jews in general to be despicable, I can see him in the context of which he lived and appreciate his historical significance and greatness despite his foibles along with his incredible successes. That IS HISTORY and we can't erase it or modify it but learn from it.

I think it is an exaggeration to say we are erasing “much” of our history.

Again, why would we want to have statues in public parks of those who were traitors? That’s what Lee and anyone who fought for him were. You can’t change history and deny that. Recognition of people like Lee belong in a museum, not a public park which should be for patriots, not traitors.

 

[Priaptor]

We remember our history, out heritage, the good with the bad, we still learn about history today, to be better societies, to not repeat past mistakes, to learn from them.

If we erect a statue to honor a priest, a football coach, etc., and that we learn later on that they were children rapists, would you like to keep those statues and honor the people they represent?

I'm not an historian, I'm not a war expert, I'm not a psychologist, I'm not the one who judge others by their accomplishments, what they brought to the world, to their countries, to humanity. I'm simply learning about history over time and what wasn't said yet, what has been kept secret, and what is known.

We honor the men and women who brought peace, harmony, humanity, good things to their country and everyone. We don't erect statues of men and women who violated humanity through wars, tortures, dictators, rapists, killers, liars, bandits, fake priests, fake soldiers, fake generals, fake cops, fake judges, fake presidents.

Learning about our past history and the people who made it is good for the brain, learning about what they truly did to people in secrets is even better. That's real evolution. It makes easier to build a better tomorrow.

Northstar, if only it were that simple.

It is history nonetheless and it is not an easy binary yes or no. I bring up the expulsion of the Jews by Grant for a reason. Is that a reason to desecrate Grant's Tomb (or Grant in general including the huge number of monuments and statues to his name) that resides in NY, one of the biggest Jewish populations in the world? There is no perfect person or event in history and many times the story behind the event has nothing to do with the outcome of the event, which many times is based on serendipity. No better example than Napoleon.

Yes there are clear cut examples of bad that we should not erect statues for but its a slippery slope once you start to desecrate and erase our history. Already we are having calls for the desecration of our Founders, including Washington and Jefferson. Yeah, they engaged in egregious acts by today's standards, should we erase them? I rather err on the side of history. As a Jew, I am watching many of my people just forget their history, particularly the Holocaust and all that went before it and its a very dangerous precedent.

Lastly, there is "civil debate" regarding the points you bring up, rather than anarchy the anarchy that is now taking hold in this country to erase our history. Wanting to preserve our history, good and bad, is the only way.

 

[NorthStar]

One of the inherent problems with the current Orwellian infatuation with only seeing history with the current lens of postmodern thought is where to stop? Do you destroy all the federal buildings in West Virginia named for former Klansman Harry Byrd? Do we level the remaining Greek and Roman ruins because they were slaveholders? There is great danger is severing the present from the past; one of the reasons I enjoy reading history and biographies. By our natures, we are imperfect and products of our times.

The way I see it ; it is us who are slaves, slaves of our past, of our history. It is our own enslavement and it's time to liberate ourselves from it, to free equality, justice, respect, dignity, civilisation. And to condemn violence, injustice, lies, rapes, human violations, ...@ any price.

After all, who's world is it?

 

[NorthStar]

Northstar, if only it were that simple.

It is history nonetheless and it is not an easy binary yes or no. I bring up the expulsion of the Jews by Grant for a reason. Is that a reason to desecrate Grant's Tomb (or Grant in general including the huge number of monuments and statues to his name) that resides in NY, one of the biggest Jewish populations in the world? There is no perfect person or event in history and many times the story behind the event has nothing to do with the outcome of the event, which many times is based on serendipity. No better example than Napoleon.

Yes there are clear cut examples of bad that we should not erect statues for but its a slippery slope once you start to desecrate and erase our history. Already we are having calls for the desecration of our Founders, including Washington and Jefferson. Yeah, they engaged in egregious acts by today's standards, should we erase them? I rather err on the side of history. As a Jew, I am watching many of my people just forget their history, particularly the Holocaust and all that went before it and its a very dangerous precedent.

Lastly, there is "civil debate" regarding the points you bring up, rather than anarchy the anarchy that is now taking hold in this country to erase our history. Wanting to preserve our history, good and bad, is the only way.

Here's what I think. A statue is like a trophy, to honor good behavior and exploits that represent the best performance in the name of good, for the good friendship and sportsmanship, honesty, human respect and dignity, for the good of our children and future generations, for the good of our planet.

Wars are for liberation, freedom, independence, peace. And killing is uncivilized, unconstitutional, barbaric and prehistoric. In 2018, treats are dealt with treaties. ...Treaties of war, treaties of peace. Words of war, words of peace. Action reaction. The past history we are trapped in, enslaved by it. The only way to obtain peace, in my opinion, is to get free of the past mistakes, not honoring them with books and statues but condemning them with books and documentaries.

I got nothing against getting rid of the lies and erect the good truth.

 

[Priaptor]

Here's what I think. A statue is like a trophy, to honor good behavior and exploits that represent the best performance in the name of good, for the good friendship and sportsmanship, honesty, human respect and dignity, for the good of our children and future generations, for the good of our planet.

Wars are for liberation, freedom, independence, peace. And killing is uncivilized, unconstitutional, barbaric and prehistoric. In 2018, treats are dealt with treaties. ...Treaties of war, treaties of peace. Words of war, words of peace. Action reaction. The past history we are trapped in, enslaved by it. The only way to obtain peace, in my opinion, is to get free of the past mistakes, not honoring them with books and statues but condemning them with books and documentaries.

I got nothing against getting rid of the lies and erect the good truth.

Well unfortunately your desires as you state are contradictory. What is with the fixation on “statues”.

 

[Priaptor]

I think it is an exaggeration to say we are erasing “much” of our history.

Again, why would we want to have statues in public parks of those who were traitors? That’s what Lee and anyone who fought for him were. You can’t change history and deny that. Recognition of people like Lee belong in a museum, not a public park which should be for patriots, not traitors.

You guys have this statue fixation. Unfortunately we are erasing our history and future generations will suffer

 

[dminches]

You guys have this statue fixation. Unfortunately we are erasing our history and future generations will suffer

How are “we” erasing history?

 

[NorthStar]

By not repeating it from the mistakes they made, by learning from it, by reading about it, the good readings, the ones who tell the truth.

 

[NorthStar]

Well unfortunately your desires as you state are contradictory. What is with the fixation on “statues”.

Nothing, it was mentioned so I just gave my opinion about it.
I don't mind statues, of Michaelangelo and gang, but not of Harvey Weinstein and that type of gang.

You guys have this statue fixation. Unfortunately we are erasing our history and future generations will suffer

I got statues in my garden; animals, fountain with boats, made of bronze, ceramic. I got a statue of a horse, a dog, an eagle, a whale.

Five billion years from now they will know that horses, dogs, eagles and whales existed...if the planet still stands.

Dinosaurs are part of our history, men and women and children. The good ones I don't mind statues of them, the rest I'd rather not. You honor the good statues of good people and good things. The rest you swear @ them, so might as well get rid of them, burn them, have a good history, the one we are making right now. ...No? ...Of course yes.

 

[dminches]

You guys have this statue fixation. Unfortunately we are erasing our history and future generations will suffer

I don't at all, but as far as I know that is the only change that has been made (taking down his statue) with respect to "erasing history." I haven't heard that history books have been burned.

 

[NorthStar]

I've watched a powerful documentary recently, there are books too about it.
I'd rather see a statue of Kathleen Peterson and never ever one of Michael Peterson.

That's pretty much my take about statues and the people we honor and love and understand their good heart guiding ours. I also like buildings that represent equality for all and justice for all.

 

[jeff1225]

I don't at all, but as far as I know that is the only change that has been made (taking down his statue) with respect to "erasing history." I haven't heard that history books have been burned.

There is a difference between documenting historical figures and honoring them. There are busts and paintings of Benidict Arnold (the hero of the Battle of Saratoga) in museums but not one statue or park honoring him.

 

[dminches]

There is a difference between documenting historical figures and honoring them. There are busts and paintings of Benidict Arnold (the hero of the Battle of Saratoga) in museums but not one statue or park honoring him.

I agree. I don’t know how history is being erased.

 

[NorthStar]

I just finished reading about him on wiki.
He was a sunnabaggun, a traitor, a low life.
This guy doesn't deserve any statue.
Still, he's part of American history, and Canadian history too...unfortunately.

• https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_Arnold