What lies beneath?

[DaveyF]

I had a very pleasant listening session with a fellow a'phile of some of the Concert Fidelity gear. As some of you know, CF believes that the way to sonic nirvana lies in the philosophy of minimum parts and the shortest path between components. So, even prepared with this philosophy in mind, when we cracked the hood on the CF component, we were still taken aback by a) the lack of parts and b) what seemed to my fellow 'philes mind, as parts that were very cheap and out of place in a product in this price range.
Since I'm not particularly up on the cost of electronic parts in general, i couldn't comment, BUT it did leave me wondering how many high end pieces with high flying prices are constructed with readily available and inexpensive inner components. To add to this, I have heard rumor ( on several occasions and from well known sources) that the vaunted DCS gear is constructed in this manner
My fellow a'phile now believes that there could be a number of 'questionable' high priced components that should be exposed for what they really are.

So, to those with more knowledge on the technical area than I, does the quality and quantity of the inner workings make that much of a difference

 

[flez007]

DaveyF, as you know I am not that technical and far from expert, but the best gear I have heard employs expensive components and a steep R&D investment (outsourced or in-house).

 

[DaveyF]

DaveyF, as you know I am not that technical and far from expert, but the best gear I have heard employs expensive components and an steep R&D investment (outsourced or in-house).

Flez, that had been my experience too....BUT the CF piece was VERY good. My fellow a'phile told me that he believed that the total cost of the CF 080 Line preamp to manufacture couldn't have been more than $1000- ( and he claims he was being generous!!) and that in a piece that retails for $24K!
Plus, he said that the case contributed by far the most to that number

 

[flez007]

That's why one most "see" with its own ears - at least that should be my take.

Glad you had the time to listen that make thou.

 

[microstrip]

DaveyF,

I have no experience with CF, but AFAIK they use old vintage FETs and components, hand picked and selected for its sonic attributes in simple circuits. I have read from several manufacturers praising these type of components - if I remember well Jean Hiraga and Nelson Pass addressed this aspect in their writings.

The price of these components from the early 70's is now obscene compared to average current semiconductors - but if you want this level of performance you must accept it.

 

[DaveyF]

Micro, I have no idea whether the parts in the CF were hand picked old vintage FET's and components. I do know that my companion felt that these parts were cheap and could easily be bettered.

 

[LL21]

I had a very pleasant listening session with a fellow a'phile of some of the Concert Fidelity gear. As some of you know, CF believes that the way to sonic nirvana lies in the philosophy of minimum parts and the shortest path between components. So, even prepared with this philosophy in mind, when we cracked the hood on the CF component, we were still taken aback by a) the lack of parts and b) what seemed to my fellow 'philes mind, as parts that were very cheap and out of place in a product in this price range.
Since I'm not particularly up on the cost of electronic parts in general, i couldn't comment, BUT it did leave me wondering how many high end pieces with high flying prices are constructed with readily available and inexpensive inner components. To add to this, I have heard rumor ( on several occasions and from well known sources) that the vaunted DCS gear is constructed in this manner
My fellow a'phile now believes that there could be a number of 'questionable' high priced components that should be exposed for what they really are.

So, to those with more knowledge on the technical area than I, does the quality and quantity of the inner workings make that much of a difference

Good to know...wonder what would happen if someone 'upgraded' those parts...i wonder if it would sound better. How much of good sound is purely parts, how much is design?

 

[NorthStar]

I was certain that it was regarding this flick ::

---

 

[mep]

Good to know...wonder what would happen if someone 'upgraded' those parts...i wonder if it would sound better. How much of good sound is purely parts, how much is design?

First of all, who knows if DavyF’s friend is a SS expert and he can tell high performance SS parts that are now obsolete from garden variety SS parts. Certain manufacturers like Ayre have stocked up on SS parts that were really good sounding because they are no longer available and nothing else currently on the market sounds as good as the obsolete parts do in the circuits they manufacture.

Second of all, I have said on numerous occasions that the quality of the circuit design is critical. I would much rather have a superior circuit design manufactured with non-boutique parts than have a mediocre circuit design that was manufactured with parts that people drool over because I know which one would sound better.

This is the second time that one of Davey’s friends has made comments that Davey takes to the bank as gospel. The time before this was the friend that supposedly heard a speaker cabinet resonance that went undetected by a reviewer during his review and didn’t show up in the professional measurements either. I take all of this with a grain of salt.

 

[Bill Hart]

I was very interested in hearing their line stage. One of our newer members here, Taksil,has the older version, which is fully upgradeable. The local dealer did not respond to several emails I sent and from outward appearances the line stage does not look like a heavy duty build. I'm not sure what it's magic is, but it is supposed to be a great sounding piece. Do you know which model line stage was in the system you heard? And, what do you think it sounded like? While I agree that you should see quality in the build and parts, I'm not sure that will guarantee good sonics. (But, given that their line stage retails at 24k US dollars, you would expect something for your money in the way of the physical product).
PS the original model is now about 6k dollars used, but the new one is 24k US, and it is two upgrade steps beyond the original as I recall. I do like the fact that they make these pieces fully upgradeable to current spec, though.

 

[opus111]

got pictures of inside?

+1

also, other than some output power devices, there are almost no devices from the past, that are not bettered by whats available nowadays.

I'm not aware of any better substitutes for the JFETs and lateral MOSFETs (drivers, not output devices) that Ayre has stocked up on.

 

[Bill Hart]

got pictures of inside?

also, other than some output power devices, there are almost no devices from the past, that are not bettered by whats available nowadays.

Tom, here's the original model, i know it has had some upgrades. There are shots of the innards within the review. http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue41/concert_fidelity.htm

Here's the latest version: http://www.concertfidelity.jp/cf080lsx.html

I thought they added XLR outputs, but I guess I was wrong.
PS I'm also assuming Davey was including the line stage in his discussion. That's the only CF component I was focusing on for myself, but i never got to hear it.

 

[DaveyF]

I'm fairly sure the line stage that we heard was the latest version. The picture in whart's second link is what we were looking at. As I stated, I have no knowledge of these parts, only know what I heard; and it was pretty good.

 

[JackD201]

Micro, I have no idea whether the parts in the CF were hand picked old vintage FET's and components. I do know that my companion felt that these parts were cheap and could easily be bettered.

Maybe, maybe not. There's a whole horde of guys out there still trying to copy the even simpler 47 Labs Gaincard and it still hasn't been done.

 

[Soundminded]

I had a very pleasant listening session with a fellow a'phile of some of the Concert Fidelity gear. As some of you know, CF believes that the way to sonic nirvana lies in the philosophy of minimum parts and the shortest path between components. So, even prepared with this philosophy in mind, when we cracked the hood on the CF component, we were still taken aback by a) the lack of parts and b) what seemed to my fellow 'philes mind, as parts that were very cheap and out of place in a product in this price range.
Since I'm not particularly up on the cost of electronic parts in general, i couldn't comment, BUT it did leave me wondering how many high end pieces with high flying prices are constructed with readily available and inexpensive inner components. To add to this, I have heard rumor ( on several occasions and from well known sources) that the vaunted DCS gear is constructed in this manner
My fellow a'phile now believes that there could be a number of 'questionable' high priced components that should be exposed for what they really are.

So, to those with more knowledge on the technical area than I, does the quality and quantity of the inner workings make that much of a difference

I have worked as an electrical engineer and project manager in many industries over the last 40 years. The prices being asked for so called audiophile equipment seems as ludicrous to me as what goes into it. Even the designs are at times so absurd as to leave me gasping. Here's a simple example. A few years ago I looked at a review of a Nagra preamplifier. Its signal path contained just three 6AT7 vacuum tubes. There are only so many ways to bias and connect these tubes, the number of options are limited. This circuit could have been built by any electronics hobbyist (except for the polypropylene capacitors that weren't available until later and are quite cheap) inthe 1950s for $50 or less. List price? $10,000. Are they effing crazy? No! It's the people who buy it believing there's some magic in it that are the crazy ones IMO. 99.99% of all of the high end audio equipment on the market could be reverse engineered and built by hobbyists if they wanted to but in this "Let George do it" world we live in, and this "I'm no expert, I have no idea how this thing really works and don't care to find out, manufacturers can charge anything and people seem to buy it.

Parts are standardized, that's the basis of the modern industrial age. You specify a transistor, a resistor, a capacitor, a transformer by its performance criteria and usually there's something already on the shelf that does exactly what you want. The idea that most parts that go into consumer audio equipment are "custom" or that they're even culled is rediculous. There were some manufacturers in the past, AR, Bose, possibly KLH that actually did cull speaker drivers and destroyed reject parts. AR had mountains of them in barrels. But today, manufacturing tolerences are tight even for speaker drivers thanks to ISO9001 and ANSI. In the production of millions of transistors and ICs of a particular run, you can bet one that passes inspection is electrically indistinguishable from another. BTW, inspection is automated. That's why they only cost a few cents to a couple of dollars apiece. There are no secrets in this industry.

Strangest of all is the idea that simpler is better. The simplest is the windup gramaphone and while it's fascinating as a museum piece, performance wise it's junk. If you had any concept of how many transistors and tubes, capacitors and inductors the electrical signals that eventually became your vinyly phonograph record went through before it got to you (same for cds) you'd gasp. Dozens, hundreds, possible many many hundreds. What makes you think an extra two or three more in your preamplifier or power amplifier are going to make the critical difference? BTW when those old records were made, those circuits weren't built to nearly the precision that goes into modern equipment.

What kept these people in line decades ago that isn't there anymore and lets them get away with their high prices? Widespread DIY. In junior high school and in high school kids were already gettig their general class radio licenses, tinkering with building short wave receivers and transmitters, tearing down car engines and rebuilding them. Today in a world that is largely helpless and thinks knowing how to type a command on a computer keyboard is technical savvy, consumers are at the mercy of the market for manufactured products. For consumer audio that market will make any claim no matter how outlandish and charge whatever it thinks the market will bear. That laquered finish on the outside of your speaker cabinet you can see yourself in that will eventually suffer mars and scratches would probably have cost more than the speakers inside....if it hadn't been made in China where labor only costs about $1 a day.

 

[mep]

Soundminded-There is much truth in what you said in your post above.

 

[Bill Hart]

I have worked as an electrical engineer and project manager in many industries over the last 40 years. The prices being asked for so called audiophile equipment seems as ludicrous to me as what goes into it. Even the designs are at times so absurd as to leave me gasping. Here's a simple example. A few years ago I looked at a review of a Nagra preamplifier. Its signal path contained just three 6AT7 vacuum tubes. There are only so many ways to bias and connect these tubes, the number of options are limited. This circuit could have been built by any electronics hobbyist (except for the polypropylene capacitors that weren't available until later and are quite cheap) inthe 1950s for $50 or less. List price? $10,000. Are they effing crazy? No! It's the people who buy it believing there's some magic in it that are the crazy ones IMO. 99.99% of all of the high end audio equipment on the market could be reverse engineered and built by hobbyists if they wanted to but in this "Let George do it" world we live in, and this "I'm no expert, I have no idea how this thing really works and don't care to find out, manufacturers can charge anything and people seem to buy it.

Parts are standardized, that's the basis of the modern industrial age. You specify a transistor, a resistor, a capacitor, a transformer by its performance criteria and usually there's something already on the shelf that does exactly what you want. The idea that most parts that go into consumer audio equipment are "custom" or that they're even culled is rediculous. There were some manufacturers in the past, AR, Bose, possibly KLH that actually did cull speaker drivers and destroyed reject parts. AR had mountains of them in barrels. But today, manufacturing tolerences are tight even for speaker drivers thanks to ISO9001 and ANSI. In the production of millions of transistors and ICs of a particular run, you can bet one that passes inspection is electrically indistinguishable from another. BTW, inspection is automated. That's why they only cost a few cents to a couple of dollars apiece. There are no secrets in this industry.

Strangest of all is the idea that simpler is better. The simplest is the windup gramaphone and while it's fascinating as a museum piece, performance wise it's junk. If you had any concept of how many transistors and tubes, capacitors and inductors the electrical signals that eventually became your vinyly phonograph record went through before it got to you (same for cds) you'd gasp. Dozens, hundreds, possible many many hundreds. What makes you think an extra two or three more in your preamplifier or power amplifier are going to make the critical difference? BTW when those old records were made, those circuits weren't built to nearly the precision that goes into modern equipment.

What kept these people in line decades ago that isn't there anymore and lets them get away with their high prices? Widespread DIY. In junior high school and in high school kids were already gettig their general class radio licenses, tinkering with building short wave receivers and transmitters, tearing down car engines and rebuilding them. Today in a world that is largely helpless and thinks knowing how to type a command on a computer keyboard is technical savvy, consumers are at the mercy of the market for manufactured products. For consumer audio that market will make any claim no matter how outlandish and charge whatever it thinks the market will bear. That laquered finish on the outside of your speaker cabinet you can see yourself in that will eventually suffer mars and scratches would probably have cost more than the speakers inside....if it hadn't been made in China where labor only costs about $1 a day.

Sorta agree also. The owner's manual for a 1920's car I had provided instructions for the owner to remove the engine. One needed to constantly adjust the dynamo with a voltmeter. Can you imagine that today, in an environment with powered cup holders?
In defense of today's youth, more are interested in IT than in electronics, per se. My nephew can root a phone, reconfigure a computer network, etc. but probably doesn't know red from white on audio outputs.
"High -end" audio has also become a 'luxury' product, hence high pricing= desirability. The Concert Fidelity is not bling though. It is supposed to sound great.

 

[FrantzM]

I have worked as an electrical engineer and project manager in many industries over the last 40 years. The prices being asked for so called audiophile equipment seems as ludicrous to me as what goes into it. Even the designs are at times so absurd as to leave me gasping. Here's a simple example. A few years ago I looked at a review of a Nagra preamplifier. Its signal path contained just three 6AT7 vacuum tubes. There are only so many ways to bias and connect these tubes, the number of options are limited. This circuit could have been built by any electronics hobbyist (except for the polypropylene capacitors that weren't available until later and are quite cheap) inthe 1950s for $50 or less. List price? $10,000. Are they effing crazy? No! It's the people who buy it believing there's some magic in it that are the crazy ones IMO. 99.99% of all of the high end audio equipment on the market could be reverse engineered and built by hobbyists if they wanted to but in this "Let George do it" world we live in, and this "I'm no expert, I have no idea how this thing really works and don't care to find out, manufacturers can charge anything and people seem to buy it.

Parts are standardized, that's the basis of the modern industrial age. You specify a transistor, a resistor, a capacitor, a transformer by its performance criteria and usually there's something already on the shelf that does exactly what you want. The idea that most parts that go into consumer audio equipment are "custom" or that they're even culled is rediculous. There were some manufacturers in the past, AR, Bose, possibly KLH that actually did cull speaker drivers and destroyed reject parts. AR had mountains of them in barrels. But today, manufacturing tolerences are tight even for speaker drivers thanks to ISO9001 and ANSI. In the production of millions of transistors and ICs of a particular run, you can bet one that passes inspection is electrically indistinguishable from another. BTW, inspection is automated. That's why they only cost a few cents to a couple of dollars apiece. There are no secrets in this industry.

Strangest of all is the idea that simpler is better. The simplest is the windup gramaphone and while it's fascinating as a museum piece, performance wise it's junk. If you had any concept of how many transistors and tubes, capacitors and inductors the electrical signals that eventually became your vinyly phonograph record went through before it got to you (same for cds) you'd gasp. Dozens, hundreds, possible many many hundreds. What makes you think an extra two or three more in your preamplifier or power amplifier are going to make the critical difference? BTW when those old records were made, those circuits weren't built to nearly the precision that goes into modern equipment.

What kept these people in line decades ago that isn't there anymore and lets them get away with their high prices? Widespread DIY. In junior high school and in high school kids were already gettig their general class radio licenses, tinkering with building short wave receivers and transmitters, tearing down car engines and rebuilding them. Today in a world that is largely helpless and thinks knowing how to type a command on a computer keyboard is technical savvy, consumers are at the mercy of the market for manufactured products. For consumer audio that market will make any claim no matter how outlandish and charge whatever it thinks the market will bear. That laquered finish on the outside of your speaker cabinet you can see yourself in that will eventually suffer mars and scratches would probably have cost more than the speakers inside....if it hadn't been made in China where labor only costs about $1 a day.

Sorta agree also. The owner's manual for a 1920's car I had provided instructions for the owner to remove the engine. One needed to constantly adjust the dynamo with a voltmeter. Can you imagine that today, in an environment with powered cup holders?
In defense of today's youth, more are interested in IT than in electronics, per se. My nephew can root a phone, reconfigure a computer network, etc. but probably doesn't know red from white on audio outputs.
"High -end" audio has also become a 'luxury' product, hence high pricing= desirability. The Concert Fidelity is not bling though. It is supposed to sound great.

+2

 

[DaveyF]

Soundminded, that's a great post. The odd thing about my experience with the CF gear is that it did sound pretty good. Far better than any mid-fi gear that probably uses multiples of parts and must cost far more to produce than the CF, that is IF you aren't a large conglomerate.
I suppose one is paying for the circuit design and that is where the 'cost' comes in Plus, the potential number of sales and lastly, but not least, the desire for maximum profit.

 

[Bill Hart]

I had another thought about this as well. When you think of the original audio companies, like WE, RCA, GE and some of the others, they were pretty big companies who could subsidize product development and still bring things in at a reasonable cost, particularly given the 'pro' market where they were competing. Once 'high-end' audio became the province of smaller, boutique manufacturers (there aren't many of these big industrial companies that make high end stuff, it is mostly mid-fi), they need to build in a substantial profit margin, just to pay themselves, that goes far beyond the costs associated with R&D and parts/assembly. Not defending this, just sayin'.