What improvements have we seen in high end audio in the last 25 years?

[caesar]

One thing that is around now that was not 25 years ago is the Sound Lab Majestic. It is clearly the state of the art in ESLs. With recent changes in the crossover, they have become much easier to drive, and they are completely full range and can deliver quite a dynamic wallop.

Unless you listen to heavy rock, with your big amps, any Soundlab is a "game over" system. ABSOLUTELY SUBLIME!!!!!

 

[Atmasphere]

^^ I've played some pretty heavy rock on them and they do just fine!

You are quite right though- with the recent changes and a set of our MA-2s, in most rooms you have unlimited power!

 

[Brian Walsh]

^^ I've played some pretty heavy rock on them and they do just fine!

You are quite right though- with the recent changes and a set of our MA-2s, in most rooms you have unlimited power!

That's true here

 

[LL21]

One thing that is around now that was not 25 years ago is the Sound Lab Majestic. It is clearly the state of the art in ESLs. With recent changes in the crossover, they have become much easier to drive, and they are completely full range and can deliver quite a dynamic wallop.

Great stuff...I just saw this review from last month.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superi..._lab_majestic_845px_electrostatic_speaker.htm

 

[LL21]

That's true here

Hi Brian,

What is the difference between the Soundlab Ultimate and Majestics? Is the Ultimate their reference? I ask because the Majestics seem to have far greater surface area and are physically bigger as well, particularly the 945. Thanks for any guidance on the difference in sound as well.

What kind of amps do you recommend...I use a Gryphon Colosseum at the moment which is a 160-watt Pure Class A (8ohm) SS amp.

 

[Brian Walsh]

Hi Brian,

What is the difference between the Soundlab Ultimate and Majestics? Is the Ultimate their reference? I ask because the Majestics seem to have far greater surface area and are physically bigger as well, particularly the 945. Thanks for any guidance on the difference in sound as well.

What kind of amps do you recommend...I use a Gryphon Colosseum at the moment which is a 160-watt Pure Class A (8ohm) SS amp.

I like the Atma-Sphere MA-2s a great deal, although the Colosseum could be a good match due to its beefy power supply and Class A operation.

As for differences between the Majestics and Ultimates, the Majestic models have large panels which yield slightly higher efficiency, while the Ultimate (U-1PX) has a rigid tubular steel frame which enables better imaging and detail as well as slightly deeper bass response. So in terms of sonic performance, the Ultimate is at the top of the heap. Taller variations of the Ultimates can be custom ordered, with panel areas similar to the Majestic series for example.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I think the biggest improvement is that we have a generation of mid-priced equipment that supersedes what was SOTA but a few years ago. I think that's particularly true now in the digital world with a whole new gen of relatively inexpensive DACs that do all formats including 2X DSD.

 

[Priaptor]

I think the biggest improvement is that we have a generation of mid-priced equipment that supersedes what was SOTA but a few years ago. I think that's particularly true now in the digital world with a whole new gen of relatively inexpensive DACs that do all formats including 2X DSD.

Including one as portable as the HUGO (that I am dying to try) that is supposedly as wonderful in a main system as it is on the road!!

 

[JackD201]

I think we're coming to a slow down in DAC developments like the one we saw in the late 90's. I think format uncertainties push such developments. I don't think this is a bad thing however. Format stability allows for the maturation/refinement of implementation. No longer huge changes but in my mind perhaps smaller but more meaningful changes.

Accross the board from mass market to high end I think the biggest improvement has been in lowering the noise floor. I attribute that to, outside of vacuum tubes in general, better design coupled with better tolerances versus 25 years ago.

The BIGGEST change IMO isn't even in sound but rather aesthetics albeit casework can influence sound too. With today's machining case work and cabinets have never had the potential to be so friggin' good looking. Now before I get bashed by the looks don't matter crowd, I ask you to be honest now. If two coffee makers make coffee equally well, do you go for the good looking one or the ugly one?

 

[BlueFox]

Now before I get bashed by the looks don't matter crowd, I ask you to be honest now. If two coffee makers make coffee equally well, do you go for the good looking one or the ugly one?

Depends on the cost. Same or similar price, probably the 'good looking' one. Otherwise, the 'ugly' one.

 

[JackD201]

That's an honest answer Bud

 

[LL21]

I like the Atma-Sphere MA-2s a great deal, although the Colosseum could be a good match due to its beefy power supply and Class A operation.

As for differences between the Majestics and Ultimates, the Majestic models have large panels which yield slightly higher efficiency, while the Ultimate (U-1PX) has a rigid tubular steel frame which enables better imaging and detail as well as slightly deeper bass response. So in terms of sonic performance, the Ultimate is at the top of the heap. Taller variations of the Ultimates can be custom ordered, with panel areas similar to the Majestic series for example.

Thank you...I read the review and did a little bit more reading. I saw the notes about the lack of ultimate slam in the May 2014 Majestic 845 review (I posted link above) when compared with horns or other SOTA designs perhaps based on cones or other techs...I have heard a similar comment from an owner of a large pair of Soundlabs as well.

No speaker is perfect, and no doubt the reviewer is correct that the Majestic does things those other speakers he loves do not do as well. Your candid thoughts are appreciated on how you feel the 845s compare (in terms of 'ultimate slam') with X2s, XLFs, Grande Utopias, other reference level speakers. Does this improve with the Ultimate or the Majestic 945x?

 

[Brian Walsh]

Thank you...I read the review and did a little bit more reading. I saw the notes about the lack of ultimate slam in the May 2014 Majestic 845 review (I posted link above) when compared with horns or other SOTA designs perhaps based on cones or other techs...I have heard a similar comment from an owner of a large pair of Soundlabs as well.

No speaker is perfect, and no doubt the reviewer is correct that the Majestic does things those other speakers he loves do not do as well. Your candid thoughts are appreciated on how you feel the 845s compare (in terms of 'ultimate slam') with X2s, XLFs, Grande Utopias, other reference level speakers. Does this improve with the Ultimate or the Majestic 945x?

The 'other reference level' speakers you mention are very, very different from Sound Labs. Among those and others, a few I could live with, many I could not. Sound Labs have no driver integration issues, for obvious reasons. I am not familiar with the amps the reviewer used in terms of their ability to drive the speakers. Nor do I know his room and associated equipment, which also would have influenced his comments. As for which model will deliver the most 'ultimate slam', it depends upon the room and to some extent the associated equipment.

 

[Atmasphere]

Thank you...I read the review and did a little bit more reading. I saw the notes about the lack of ultimate slam in the May 2014 Majestic 845 review (I posted link above) when compared with horns or other SOTA designs perhaps based on cones or other techs...I have heard a similar comment from an owner of a large pair of Soundlabs as well.

No speaker is perfect, and no doubt the reviewer is correct that the Majestic does things those other speakers he loves do not do as well. Your candid thoughts are appreciated on how you feel the 845s compare (in terms of 'ultimate slam') with X2s, XLFs, Grande Utopias, other reference level speakers. Does this improve with the Ultimate or the Majestic 945x?

If you want slam out of a Sound Lab, don't put transistors on it! They can't make power into the high impedance in the bass region. This is why OTLs and ESLs have been a tradition for over 50 years...

 

[caesar]

If you want slam out of a Sound Lab, don't put transistors on it! They can't make power into the high impedance in the bass region. This is why OTLs and ESLs have been a tradition for over 50 years...

Don't doubt the OTL / ESL combo one bit, but how do you explain the sound of Bryston bass, a transistor non-the-less, which kicks like the proverbial mule?

 

[LL21]

If you want slam out of a Sound Lab, don't put transistors on it! They can't make power into the high impedance in the bass region. This is why OTLs and ESLs have been a tradition for over 50 years...

Thank you! Can you explain in 'dumbed down' language to a non-techie why? I drive a Gryphon Colosseum. Also, if we drove it with OTLs as you suggest, are we getting Colosseum + XLF slam in 'basic terms'? Most curious since I have not found a place to hear them. thank you.

 

[Atmasphere]

Don't doubt the OTL / ESL combo one bit, but how do you explain the sound of Bryston bass, a transistor non-the-less, which kicks like the proverbial mule?

I'm sure the Bryston does just fine. But you can get more is all...

Thank you! Can you explain in 'dumbed down' language to a non-techie why? I drive a Gryphon Colosseum. Also, if we drove it with OTLs as you suggest, are we getting Colosseum + XLF slam in 'basic terms'? Most curious since I have not found a place to hear them. thank you.

I sure can:

http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/Paradigms_in_Amplifier_Design.php

ESLs are Power Paradigm technology. This is because their impedance curve is not based on a driver in a box with a resonant peak, instead it is based on a capacitor. So the Voltage rules don't work so well- the typical response is not enough bass and too much highs. Also due to the impedance curve you need a really powerful transistor amp to keep up with a less powerful tube amp. The bass region of the speaker is about 30 ohms, so if you have a 600-watt transistor amp it will make about 150 watts in the bass region, which allows a 150-watt tube amp to do the same work, only without the brightness (even though still being extended in the highs).

This is something that was not around 25 years ago- while we had the tubes/transistors debate back then, there was zero discussion about the underlying reasons about how the two technologies interacted with the speaker. Everything was couched in Voltage parlance, which was insufficient to explain what was going on.

 

[Brian Walsh]

Thank you! Can you explain in 'dumbed down' language to a non-techie why? I drive a Gryphon Colosseum. Also, if we drove it with OTLs as you suggest, are we getting Colosseum + XLF slam in 'basic terms'? Most curious since I have not found a place to hear them. thank you.

There might be an opportunity to audition Gryphon amplification vs. Atma-Sphere MA-2s on the U-1PXs here if it happened soon, but this is best handled via private correspondence.

 

[LL21]

I'm sure the Bryston does just fine. But you can get more is all...



I sure can:

http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/Paradigms_in_Amplifier_Design.php

ESLs are Power Paradigm technology. This is because their impedance curve is not based on a driver in a box with a resonant peak, instead it is based on a capacitor. So the Voltage rules don't work so well- the typical response is not enough bass and too much highs. Also due to the impedance curve you need a really powerful transistor amp to keep up with a less powerful tube amp. The bass region of the speaker is about 30 ohms, so if you have a 600-watt transistor amp it will make about 150 watts in the bass region, which allows a 150-watt tube amp to do the same work, only without the brightness (even though still being extended in the highs).

This is something that was not around 25 years ago- while we had the tubes/transistors debate back then, there was zero discussion about the underlying reasons about how the two technologies interacted with the speaker. Everything was couched in Voltage parlance, which was insufficient to explain what was going on.

Interesting...looks like another reason why if I like my gryphon, it is worth considering more seriously the speakers which have been designed with them in mind.

 

[Brian Walsh]

Don't doubt the OTL / ESL combo one bit, but how do you explain the sound of Bryston bass, a transistor non-the-less, which kicks like the proverbial mule?

Bryston is known for its bass, although I don't know about driving Sound Labs. And then there's the rest of the audio spectrum.

OTLs may well be the optimum choice, for reasons Ralph has stated.