What comes first: listening chair placement or speaker placement?

[Mike Lavigne]

I really agree that in order to set up your speakers you have to have a place to sit and listen. How do you poisition speakers if you arent sitting and listening to them?

what went thru my mind too. where does that sound come from that's helping you determine the bass nodes for the listening position? from a seat of the pants speaker spot.

the start is the start.

got to have a speaker playing.

with all due respect to Jim, of course. i'm sure he will tell us his view.

 

[Elliot G.]

what went thru my mind too. where does that sound come from that's helping you determine the bass nodes for the listening position? from a seat of the pants speaker spot.

the start is the start.

got to have a speaker playing.

yes of course you do but it doesnt need to be perfect to move a chair around Mike or even walk through the room and speak

 

[Mike Lavigne]

yes of course you do but it doesnt need to be perfect to move a chair around Mike or even walk through the room and speak

right, just a SWAG spot for both, and away you go.

 

[sigbergaudio]

This all makes sense.



Interesting. Because of bass reponse and bass nodes?

I suppose also in this asymmetrical case relative to room the position of listener to both *speakers* should still be symmetrical.

Yes, you will typically have less severe reflections in an asymmetric position. And yes, your position relative to the two speakers should of course still be symmetrical for proper stereo perspective and imaging.

 

[microstrip]

As the foundational system/room set-up step in RoomPlay sessions, this is also the most pervasive, appearing in different scenarios from time-to-time.

Establishing the Anchor Point – locating your optimum listening position

Why would you spend time & effort moving your speakers around if your listening position hasn't been first established, so that you will have even smoother bass, and therefore better musical dynamics – a vital step in a more musically involving experience?

The negative effects resulting from not addressing this critical issue – the Anchor Point - simply cannot be overstated (hopefully, since I keep reinforcing it). Even so, I am constantly amazed at how many audiophiles, dealers, reviewers and manufacturers – and even some well-known set-up guys – miss this fundamental aspect of music reproduction. When I see them worrying about speaker placement without having discovered the basic listening position first, I cringe.

Certainly, better speaker placement (including distance away from the listener and from walls; speaker separation; toe-in; etc.) can make a real improvement, but it will never have been as powerful as it could have been had those steps been built on the foundation of first finding the best listening position – the Anchor Point for all else that follows.

Basically, we are concerned about the effects of room resonances in the bass/lower midrange (from 25-250 Hz). These resonances are related to the room dimensions, and to some extent, the shape of the room and the contents of the room. These resonances may appear as peaks in the response (phase reinforcement) or they may appear as dips (phase cancellation).

Essentially, these peaks & dips in the 25-250Hz region are part of the sonic signature of the room. Indeed, every room has these issues – no matter how much was spent on their design & execution – issues which are directly related to the room’s dimensions, and to some extent, its shape. It behooves the listener to locate a listening area where the room is most neutral (peaks and dips are minimized by locating the position that works with the room's dimensions, rather than against it). The ultimate result of ignoring this aspect is reduced musical dynamics (and thus - reduced musical engagement) as I have mentioned.

By most neutral listening area, I mean the area in the room where the bass is smoothest, not necessarily the deepest. In other words, the room’s resonant peaks are diminished and its resonant suck-outs are less deep.

I fully agree with you on the importance of the listening position - all speaker positioning methods rely on the determination of the listening point.

Besides your book and videos I think WBF readers will find your articles at Audioexotics extremely interesting

https://audioexotics.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/13088/subwoofery-by-jim-smith

In fact, it would be great to have a sofware tool that would analyze the RTA spectra taken with REW, for example, at regular distance intervals and would tell audiophiles what is the better listening position!

BTW, when making these initial measurements where do you place the excitation speakers?

 

[sigbergaudio]

It may also be worth mentioning (hoping it's not heresy on this forum), that following the succesful location of listening position and speakers, the next step towards even better bass is dual subwoofers. If asymmetrically placed as well, even better. Preferrably with high passed mains, aka limited overlap in frequency between speakers and subwoofers.

Final touch after that (if needed) is some careful EQ. One or two EQ points below 100hz is often sufficient for very linear bass if all that comes before has been done properly.

 

[XV-1]

As the foundational system/room set-up step in RoomPlay sessions, this is also the most pervasive, appearing in different scenarios from time-to-time.

Establishing the Anchor Point – locating your optimum listening position

Why would you spend time & effort moving your speakers around if your listening position hasn't been first established, so that you will have even smoother bass, and therefore better musical dynamics – a vital step in a more musically involving experience?

The negative effects resulting from not addressing this critical issue – the Anchor Point - simply cannot be overstated (hopefully, since I keep reinforcing it). Even so, I am constantly amazed at how many audiophiles, dealers, reviewers and manufacturers – and even some well-known set-up guys – miss this fundamental aspect of music reproduction. When I see them worrying about speaker placement without having discovered the basic listening position first, I cringe.

Certainly, better speaker placement (including distance away from the listener and from walls; speaker separation; toe-in; etc.) can make a real improvement, but it will never have been as powerful as it could have been had those steps been built on the foundation of first finding the best listening position – the Anchor Point for all else that follows.

Basically, we are concerned about the effects of room resonances in the bass/lower midrange (from 25-250 Hz). These resonances are related to the room dimensions, and to some extent, the shape of the room and the contents of the room. These resonances may appear as peaks in the response (phase reinforcement) or they may appear as dips (phase cancellation).

Essentially, these peaks & dips in the 25-250Hz region are part of the sonic signature of the room. Indeed, every room has these issues – no matter how much was spent on their design & execution – issues which are directly related to the room’s dimensions, and to some extent, its shape. It behooves the listener to locate a listening area where the room is most neutral (peaks and dips are minimized by locating the position that works with the room's dimensions, rather than against it). The ultimate result of ignoring this aspect is reduced musical dynamics (and thus - reduced musical engagement) as I have mentioned.

By most neutral listening area, I mean the area in the room where the bass is smoothest, not necessarily the deepest. In other words, the room’s resonant peaks are diminished and its resonant suck-outs are less deep.

Does the listening position change if you are a nearfield, mid or farfield listener?

 

[Lagonda]

It may also be worth mentioning (hoping it's not heresy on this forum), that following the succesful location of listening position and speakers, the next step towards even better bass is dual subwoofers. If asymmetrically placed as well, even better. Preferrably with high passed mains, aka limited overlap in frequency between speakers and subwoofers.

Final touch after that (if needed) is some careful EQ. One or two EQ points below 100hz is often sufficient for very linear bass if all that comes before has been done properly.

To bad so few crossovers have these features, sufficient phase settings and are transparent !

 

[Jim Smith]

In order to locate the best seating position, I simply use pink noise and measure it with a RTA. Before measuring, I place the speakers in the general location that I estimate they will be in. Sometimes I simply use my phone and the RTA program from Studio Six Digital - AudioTools.

Once the system set-up procedure is relatively far along, I experiment with slight movements forward & back to see if the sound is more engaging. A RTA cannot reveal the absolute best location. We listen for that. Then final setup can move forward.

 

[Jim Smith]

Does the listening position change if you are a nearfield, mid or farfield listener?

No. Only the loudspeaker positions.

 

[StreamFidelity]

I am currently in the process of setting up a new listening room. This listening room is not particularly large at 3.7m x 4.7m.

There is a loudspeaker calculator from Germany: hunecke.de | Loudspeakers Calculator

With it, the room modes in the bass can be calculated. It depends on the wall distances of the speakers and of course on the listening position. I start here as in reality with the loudspeaker positioning. An example:

Even if the reality will look different, the calculator allows a first position determination. For more Information: Planning a new listening room – Grigg Audio Solutions

 

[Robh3606]

I really agree that in order to set up your speakers you have to have a place to sit and listen. How do you poisition speakers if you arent sitting and listening to them?

Depends on what you are doing. For example I try to find the smoothest low end in room response by trying different speaker placement.

I have a general idea but the speaker placement for best in room LF response is going to impact where you are listening from.

When I do that I am walking trough and around the room listening for peaks and suck outs. I use a LF sweep from 200Hz down to 20hz. Once I get the LF "RIGHT" or almost then I will be looking for the same thing for a seat. Sometimes it work where the speaker stay sometimes not. I have an spl meter that can track the peaks and dips. I also use media.

Once I am in the seat I look for LF issues. repeat the sweep, and then adjust toe-in speaker spacing and seat distance from walls and speakers.

So I start with no seat.

Well worth the time spent! Once they are dialed in just enjoy!

Rob

 

[Walnut Horns]

In order to locate the best seating position, I simply use pink noise and measure it with a RTA. Before measuring, I place the speakers in the general location that I estimate they will be in. Sometimes I simply use my phone and the RTA program from Studio Six Digital - AudioTools.

Once the system set-up procedure is relatively far along, I experiment with slight movements forward & back to see if the sound is more engaging. A RTA cannot reveal the absolute best location. We listen for that. Then final setup can move forward.

Hi Jim,

I appreciate your contributions. What are you measuring for when with the pink noise and RTA? Thanks.

Evan

 

[Jim Smith]

I've always measured from 25-250 Hz, as those frequency areas are where you encounter the peaks & dips that are the most bothersome room resonances.

FWIW, moving the speakers a foot or so backwards or forwards will make a difference, but not nearly as big as moving your seat backwards or forwards a foot or so. That's one of the reasons that I say find the seating area first.

It's also important to be sure you take all measurements at your seated ear height, beause if you hold the mic or other measurement device at standing face height, the measurements will be incorrect, because the floor-to-ceiling resonances will be incorrect.

Of course the speakers will need to be adjusted from the seating position. However, I never accept the seat location measurements as the final result - they are simply a good starting point.

I then want to play some music with varying, but well recorded bass frequencies. I may have to move the seat forward or backwards a bit to get the most agile & tuneful bass. I've never found any in-room measurements to be that exact with the longer wavelengths that we have in the bass.