What’s with the ‘this amp, it’s really good for small scale music’ thing

[Cableman]

Any decent amp irrespective of price must be able to produce ALL MUSIC from the sweetest whimsical female vocal to in your face head banging rock to full scale classical drama. If it can’t do that toss it and move on

No amp is worth it’s salt if it’s only really good for the proverbial ‘small scale stuff’.

 

[Hear Here]

Sorry, but that's nonsense. That's like saying one orchestra or rock band should be able to perform any music.

Most amps can reproduce most music very well, but often better at some styles of music than others. More so with speakers. Some first class speakers are useless with types of music that they really arn't tuned to do as well as the style they excel with.

 

[LL21]

Agree, Hear here...its all relative. The whole point of going for extreme performance (ie, What's best) is that you are looking for absolute pinnacle performance if you can...and just like cars, race horses, and world-class tennis players (ie, hard court vs grass vs clay)...you find at the extreme levels that certain amps will sometimes excel at certain areas above 'otherwise very good performance throughout'.

All top 100 tennis players are good...but which of the top 10 are 'the best' at clay, vs on grass, etc? Same with amps.

And it is where an amp excels that people tend to focus...and then decry the amp if it is not at the same level on other kinds of music that demand other forms of technical performance. Ever thus...

 

[Cableman]

Sorry, but that's nonsense. That's like saying one orchestra or rock band should be able to perform any music.

Most amps can reproduce most music very well, but often better at some styles of music than others. More so with speakers. Some first class speakers are useless with types of music that they really arn't tuned to do as well as the style they excel with.

Nope disagree and your musical comparison just doesn’t hold water. Quality amps must play all types of music well. If they don’t they’re deficient and hence should be tossed

 

[Cableman]

Agree, Hear here...its all relative. The whole point of going for extreme performance (ie, What's best) is that you are looking for absolute pinnacle performance if you can...and just like cars, race horses, and world-class tennis players (ie, hard court vs grass vs clay)...you find at the extreme levels that certain amps will sometimes excel at certain areas above 'otherwise very good performance throughout'.

All top 100 tennis players are good...but which of the top 10 are 'the best' at clay, vs on grass, etc? Same with amps.

And it is where an amp excels that people tend to focus...and then decry the amp if it is not at the same level on other kinds of music that demand other forms of technical performance. Ever thus...

Again sorry. I disagree. A quality amp to pass muster must be able to play all types of music well, irrespective. If it can’t then it’s not doing it’s job and is lacking the true test of a decent amp.

Case in point for me. A phonostage ( yes not an amp I grant you, by a highly respected brand near/at the top end of phonostages) just could not cut it on certain types of music. Lacking in dynamics. It was an easy sale but it had to go. I replaced it with one that DID perform across ALL genres.
There should be no compromising when it comes to the performance of any component in the system IMHO

 

[LL21]

Again sorry. I disagree. A quality amp to pass muster must be able to play all types of music well, irrespective. If it can’t then it’s not doing it’s job and is lacking the true test of a decent amp.

Case in point for me. A phonostage ( yes not an amp I grant you, by a highly respected brand near/at the top end of phonostages) just could not cut it on certain types of music. Lacking in dynamics. It was an easy sale but it had to go. I replaced it with one that DID perform across ALL genres.
There should be no compromising when it comes to the performance of any component in the system IMHO

Ahhh...you used the magic word: 'decent'. If you are talking decent performance, then we agree. But if you are talking all out state of the art performance...we do not. I have heard many low powered amps do beautifully with vocals...but give them a 100-piece orchestra playing 90db with 120db peaks...and it's game over. And there is nothing wrong with that...if you like jazz vocals...and dont play at club or orchestra full-scale levels.

But look at Marty who just returned the $100K CH M10 because he felt that at 120db peaks in-room, it failed to deliver the power, majesty in bass that he expected of a flagship. Is that amp a failure? Tossed out? According to the number of owners who love the amp, apparently not. But Marty's demands are extreme...drive an Alexx V with a wicked impedance/phase curve to 120db peaks in-room with full-tilt orchestral.

 

[marty]

But look at Marty who just returned the $100K CH M10 because he felt that at 120db peaks in-room, it failed to deliver the power, majesty in bass that he expected of a flagship. .... But Marty's demands are extreme...drive an Alexx V with a wicked impedance/phase curve to 120db peaks in-room with full-tilt orchestral.

Lloyd, almost but not quite. I do indeed think the amp was incapable of performing to my satisfaction, but at far less than 120dB peaks. (Last I checked, my ears are not bleeding nor is the Alexx V a jet engine). But it's fair to say my demands and expectations were very high. Based on several pieces of data, I think the issue is as you suggested- it was not the right amp with a low enough output impedance to drive a speaker with a vice-like grip due to its challenging impedance curve. I just wish I knew that in advance. I would also add that the issue was not just apparent with just power music. The amp didn't perform well when reproducing a simple upright bass at modest levels again, because of its design combined with an unfriendly speaker impedance match.

 

[BlueFox]

An amp needs to amplify a signal from its source. It’s irrelevant what type of music is coming from the source. The only issue is how much can the amp amplify the signal.

 

[Cableman]

Ahhh...you used the magic word: 'decent'. If you are talking decent performance, then we agree. But if you are talking all out state of the art performance...we do not. I have heard many low powered amps do beautifully with vocals...but give them a 100-piece orchestra playing 90db with 120db peaks...and it's game over. And there is nothing wrong with that...if you like jazz vocals...and dont play at club or orchestra full-scale levels.

But look at Marty who just returned the $100K CH M10 because he felt that at 120db peaks in-room, it failed to deliver the power, majesty in bass that he expected of a flagship. Is that amp a failure? Tossed out? According to the number of owners who love the amp, apparently not. But Marty's demands are extreme...drive an Alexx V with a wicked impedance/phase curve to 120db peaks in-room with full-tilt orchestral.

If an amp can’t deliver on all types of music then it’s not doing its job properly. For too long many have accepted that some amps play ‘small music’ really well but can’t deliver on a grand scale. IMHO they are suffering with poor quality amps. Decent amps play all music really well. And as for levels. Volume is indeed crucial to musicality. You need to be able to set the volume just right for your listening room. Get the correct musical balance with a decent amp and everything should fall into place-for all genres.

I’ve worked on many sides of both the music and hifi industries. Record label owner. Artist Management Producer Mixer Concert Promoter. Hifi Dealer Distributor and now Manufacturer. I call it like I sees it.

 

[LL21]

Lloyd, almost but not quite. I do indeed think the amp was incapable of performing to my satisfaction, but at far less than 120dB peaks. (Last I checked, my ears are not bleeding nor is the Alexx V a jet engine). But it's fair to say my demands and expectations were very high. Based on several pieces of data, I think the issue is as you suggested- it was not the right amp with a low enough output impedance to drive a speaker with a vice-like grip due to its challenging impedance curve. I just wish I knew that in advance. I would also add that the issue was not just apparent with just power music. The amp didn't perform well when reproducing a simple upright bass at modest levels again, because of its design combined with an unfriendly speaker impedance match.

Hi Marty,

I came up with the 120db based on your meter reading of 1000 watts from your amps while playing...based on the 92.5db sensitivitiy, isnt that 120 db peaks?

 

[LL21]

An amp needs to amplify a signal from its source. It’s irrelevant what type of music is coming from the source. The only issue is how much can the amp amplify the signal.

That is assuming the signal of a person speaking is the same demand on the amplifier load as a cannon blast during the 1812 Overture, isn't it? In the same way that the peak range between a person speaking and that cannon blast, I would have thought most amps run out of steam to hit the full dynamic range...hence why many audiophiles who experience high quality 1000 watt amps often note there is a new-found freedom they rarely experience with 100 watt exceptional quality amps.

I am not saying there are not 1000 other reasons to prefer that 100 watt amp...but somehow I would have thought that in the same way race cars handle certain tracks better than others, etc...(even though they all drive 'pretty fast'...that amps also have certain things they do better than others...and thus, as the extreme level of performance, there will be those times when certain music plays to the strength of the speaker or equipment better.

Again, I am talking about extreme performance, not about good or great performance.

 

[LL21]

If an amp can’t deliver on all types of music then it’s not doing its job properly. For too long many have accepted that some amps play ‘small music’ really well but can’t deliver on a grand scale. IMHO they are suffering with poor quality amps. Decent amps play all music really well. And as for levels. Volume is indeed crucial to musicality. You need to be able to set the volume just right for your listening room. Get the correct musical balance with a decent amp and everything should fall into place-for all genres.

I’ve worked on many sides of both the music and hifi industries. Record label owner. Artist Management Producer Mixer Concert Promoter. Hifi Dealer Distributor and now Manufacturer. I call it like I sees it.

Again, delivering and delivering to the exceptional level are different things. I think all amps are imperfect...thereby doing certain things better than others...and the minute they do one thing better than something else...then by definition, music that plays to those strengths or weaknesses more will by definition show off more or less what the amp can do best.

If every kind of sound signal has different amplitudes, dynamic requirements, etc...then by definition, since amps are all imperfect and do certain things better than others, we will find areas where the performance of the amp varies. This is why we have so many preferences in amplification in the first place.

 

[Cableman]

Again, delivering and delivering to the exceptional level are different things. I think all amps are imperfect...thereby doing certain things better than others...and the minute they do one thing better than something else...then by definition, music that plays to those strengths or weaknesses more will by definition show off more or less what the amp can do best.

If every kind of sound signal has different amplitudes, dynamic requirements, etc...then by definition, since amps are all imperfect and do certain things better than others, we will find areas where the performance of the amp varies. This is why we have so many preferences in amplification in the first place.

Hi. I played The Who The Kinks some large scale orchestral classical with huge dynamics. Then some Carpenters. Nope. No variation in sound quality as I could tell and I’m pretty sure I’d hear it if there was.

 

[Cableman]

That is assuming the signal of a person speaking is the same demand on the amplifier load as a cannon blast during the 1812 Overture, isn't it? In the same way that the peak range between a person speaking and that cannon blast, I would have thought most amps run out of steam to hit the full dynamic range...hence why many audiophiles who experience high quality 1000 watt amps often note there is a new-found freedom they rarely experience with 100 watt exceptional quality amps.

I am not saying there are not 1000 other reasons to prefer that 100 watt amp...but somehow I would have thought that in the same way race cars handle certain tracks better than others, etc...(even though they all drive 'pretty fast'...that amps also have certain things they do better than others...and thus, as the extreme level of performance, there will be those times when certain music plays to the strength of the speaker or equipment better.

Again, I am talking about extreme performance, not about good or great performance.

If it’s a decent amp it will ‘obtain’ the massive surge in current required for going ‘from a whisper to a scream’ If it can do that it’s right by me. Nothing ‘extreme’ required. Just has to be able to do it’s job. Mine can.

 

[LL21]

Well that is my point, if one is looking for extreme performance, then by definition all amps will excel in certain areas better than others. For example, if the distortion at 1khz is 0.001% but at the same volume is 0.002% at 20hz, then by definition the amp has double the distortion at one frequency than the other...and as much as it may not be 'much' it is still double. At the extreme level of performance (which is by implication 'What's Best'), then the amp will not portray the 20hz frequency as well as the 1khz frequency due to the distortion characteristics. Naturally, there are other metrics at play (human sensitivity to distortion at 20hz vs 1khz)...but in the end at the extreme level of performance, then everything matters.

 

[LL21]

There are loads of decent amps, and most anything well designed will perform...but for those who continue to push the boundary, then that is where not all equipment will play certain music with equal facility. In the most extreme scenarios, some audiophiles have multiple systems [partly] for that reason. Living Voice Vox Olympian for opera perhaps, but massive cones for something else perhaps more club-percussive.

 

[Cableman]

There are loads of decent amps, and most anything well designed will perform...but for those who continue to push the boundary, then that is where not all equipment will play certain music with equal facility. In the most extreme scenarios, some audiophiles have multiple systems [partly] for that reason. Living Voice Vox Olympian for opera perhaps, but massive cones for something else perhaps more club-percussive.

A decent amp should play all genres equally well. Multiple systems are a luxury I can afford but don’t need to.

 

[K3RMIT]

I think it’s not just the AMP but the combo of amp speaker. imp curves can crush some amps but only on certain music or dynamics. subtle sounds to very high is a function of the combo. regarding the phono pre I do agree , having said this can it be the preamp input was too high from the phono pre
or was the gain on the phono pre too high on a setting?

 

[LL21]

Exactly...which then takes you to the next point...which is does every speaker playing everything perfectly? Of course not...there are no perfect speakers. And thus we begin once again...there is no perfect system...no perfect recording.

Am I extremely grateful and considered myself blessed to have the system we do to play ALL kinds of music? Absolutely!

Do I think that maybe for a cappella I might prefer SET with Living Voice Olympian? Very likely. Do I care? Not a bit. But that does not mean I expect our system plays everything equally well anymore than I would expect the mighty Vox Olympian to do so...or any other amp, source, room or anything else for that matter.

 

[Cableman]

An amp needs to amplify a signal from its source. It’s irrelevant what type of music is coming from the source. The only issue is how much can the amp amplify the signal.

Spot on!

I think it’s not just the AMP but the combo of amp speaker. imp curves can crush some amps but only on certain music or dynamics. subtle sounds to very high is a function of the combo. regarding the phono pre I do agree , having said this can it be the preamp input was too high from the phono pre
or was the gain on the phono pre too high on a setting?

the Ypsilon just did not have the gain my system required. The Vitus the Tom Evans and the awful sounding d’Agostino did. I know this because I kept the volume the same as it’s always been for my listening room. Volume is something often overlooked when setting up hifi systems. It shouldn’t. It’s absolutely crucial.