Visit to Todd (sbnx) Avantgarde Trio G3 in Parker, Texas

[nirodha]

Yes, they are Matte. A grey color they chose to call "Eargasmic".

I have no idea whether gloss or matte would sound better. If you had asked me before I started the Trio Journey I would have emphatically stated that there is no way this matters. However, now I am certain that it does matter. But without haveing both there is no way to know which is better.

From a fluid flow perspective I can see that the matte finish would casue a little turbulence in the air flow at the boundary. Why this would be better or worse I don't know.

Seems a question for Armin to answer. And about the “ringing”… heard nothing of the kind after 5 sessions wit the latest generation (Trio, Duo GT, Duo SD and Uno…. Yes I have been busy ).

 

[Kozak170]

The hORNS designer for Universum advises customers to choose a matte finish for the mid horn and a glossy finish for the tweeter horn for the best SQ. It seems that they recommended two types of finishes for two different wavelengths, mid and treble.
Of course, the Universum uses the Le Cleac'h horn profile, which is slightly different from the Avantgarde horns, which use the Kugelwellen horn profile, so the ideal finish type for the Avantgarde can be different.

 

[bonzo75]

The hORNS designer for Universum advises customers to choose a matte finish for the mid horn and a glossy finish for the tweeter horn for the best SQ. It seems that they recommended two types of finishes for two different wavelengths, mid and treble.
Of course, the Universum uses the Le Cleac'h horn profile, which is slightly different from the Avantgarde horns, which use the Kugelwellen horn profile, so the ideal finish type for the Avantgarde can be different.

By roughening the JMLC or using nextel paint it reduces reflections and the brightness.

 

[AudioHR]

I never mentioned price. I do have some heavyweight pieces. I import and sell some heavyweight items. I got involved with all of them strictly because of what they were able to do period. I don't say bad things about brands and won't here however they are not all equal and in many ways not even close to what I deem to be important/excellent or realistic. I don't grind gear and to be honest stuff usually finds me as I don't look for anything. Even getting involved with Gobel was a weird circumstance that just played out.
I am a strong believer in system set up and the integration of the gear into the room that is being used. Many of audio issues are just that the room and the systems interactions . People want to blame the gear when many times its the interaction in the room that is the issue.
I am not looking for the weakness of the recordings but rather the strength.
In everything of quality we get involved in we don't need to prove every single minute thing.
I can go to a new restaurant and know the food is good or great or insane. I can go to purchase a new car and know that the vehicle is amazing or just average. This education comes from experience and knowledge and they are both the cornerstone of audio as well.
I m not special or better I am just experienced and I know what I am trying to achieve. I have learned to a large extent what causes certain things/sounds to happen and why and where they come from. It comes from many years of screwing around with my gear, my stores gear and clients and friends gear and all those rooms.
I don't get tied up in knots with all the possible excuses and exceptions. I know what a piano sounds like. I know what a violin sounds like. I have heard so many of them up close , unamplified and very personal. Those are tools that I can use, someone else may use other criteria, maybe they can do it better . I want to learn, always have, and had some great teachers and contemporaries that I have worked and compared results with.
Audio is to me music and music is joy, emotion and a large degree of escapism.
I want to say this with all due respect to everyone. I don't believe that all the opinions that are expressed by the press, reviewers, manufactures', users, designers are accurate or even correct.
I say this because so many seem desperate for guidance and reinforcement of their opinions and purchases.
I did my thing, I got my result, some may like it others may not but I don't spend anytime worrying about what I can't control.
Music is glorious and irreplaceable for me , I don't go a day without it.
That's all I try to achieve and it takes a lot of work and dedication to get there. I totally respect people like Todd, Mike, Alan E. and others who did the work. They both have mostly different things than I do and I think that's freeking GREAT. I love hearing someone system and getting thrilled by the result. Different is cool but it still sounds
like the real thing.
Things that I can't prove but I just know they are true LOL
Enjoy

I never mentioned price. I do have some heavyweight pieces. I import and sell some heavyweight items. I got involved with all of them strictly because of what they were able to do period. I don't say bad things about brands and won't here however they are not all equal and in many ways not even close to what I deem to be important/excellent or realistic. I don't grind gear and to be honest stuff usually finds me as I don't look for anything. Even getting involved with Gobel was a weird circumstance that just played out.
I am a strong believer in system set up and the integration of the gear into the room that is being used. Many of audio issues are just that the room and the systems interactions . People want to blame the gear when many times its the interaction in the room that is the issue.
I am not looking for the weakness of the recordings but rather the strength.
In everything of quality we get involved in we don't need to prove every single minute thing.
I can go to a new restaurant and know the food is good or great or insane. I can go to purchase a new car and know that the vehicle is amazing or just average. This education comes from experience and knowledge and they are both the cornerstone of audio as well.
I m not special or better I am just experienced and I know what I am trying to achieve. I have learned to a large extent what causes certain things/sounds to happen and why and where they come from. It comes from many years of screwing around with my gear, my stores gear and clients and friends gear and all those rooms.
I don't get tied up in knots with all the possible excuses and exceptions. I know what a piano sounds like. I know what a violin sounds like. I have heard so many of them up close , unamplified and very personal. Those are tools that I can use, someone else may use other criteria, maybe they can do it better . I want to learn, always have, and had some great teachers and contemporaries that I have worked and compared results with.
Audio is to me music and music is joy, emotion and a large degree of escapism.
I want to say this with all due respect to everyone. I don't believe that all the opinions that are expressed by the press, reviewers, manufactures', users, designers are accurate or even correct.
I say this because so many seem desperate for guidance and reinforcement of their opinions and purchases.
I did my thing, I got my result, some may like it others may not but I don't spend anytime worrying about what I can't control.
Music is glorious and irreplaceable for me , I don't go a day without it.
That's all I try to achieve and it takes a lot of work and dedication to get there. I totally respect people like Todd, Mike, Alan E. and others who did the work. They both have mostly different things than I do and I think that's freeking GREAT. I love hearing someone system and getting thrilled by the result. Different is cool but it still sounds
like the real thing.
Things that I can't prove but I just know they are true LOL
Enjoy

Outstanding response to my query. I was actually posing more of a general question but I appreciate you framing your response as you did. Your passion, expertise and integrity are impressive!

 

[Audiohertz2]

By roughening the JMLC or using nextel paint it reduces reflections and the brightness.

You should give credit to those you are quoting , unless you are willing to explain how a rough surface attenuates to those of us not in the know ...



Regards

 

[bonzo75]

You should give credit to those you are quoting , unless you are willing to explain how a rough surface attenuates to those of us not in the know ...



Regards

Nextel was used by Leif and one other guy who has used the autotech horns used some other paint to roughen up - not sure which. They said you should not have it smooth.

 

[tima]

Nextel was used by Leif and one other guy who has used the autotech horns used some other paint to roughen up - not sure which. They said you should not have it smooth.

Nextel? I know that as coating for cabinets. I would guess a speaker coating would Aquaplas. JBL used both, Nextel for cabinets and Aquaplus on speakers. Nextel does not hold up over time as it tends to flake.

What is Aquaplas

What is aquaplas and what are the benefits? Why are woofers aquaplased in the front or the rear? Thanks.

www.audioheritage.org

 

[bonzo75]

Nextel? I know that as coating for cabinets. I would guess a speaker coating would Aquaplas. JBL used both, Nextel for cabinets and Aquaplus on speakers. Nextel does not hold up over time as it tends to flake.

What is Aquaplas

What is aquaplas and what are the benefits? Why are woofers aquaplased in the front or the rear? Thanks.

www.audioheritage.org

Aqua plas a use by jbl on the driver cones.

nextel is used by DIYers on the inside off the round JMLC horns

 

[Hear Here]

Nextel? I know that as coating for cabinets. I would guess a speaker coating would Aquaplas. JBL used both, Nextel for cabinets and Aquaplus on speakers. Nextel does not hold up over time as it tends to flake.

What is Aquaplas

What is aquaplas and what are the benefits? Why are woofers aquaplased in the front or the rear? Thanks.

www.audioheritage.org

Certainly Nextel is nothing new to Avantgarde. Their bass cabinets were finished with Nextel from early days. The User Manual of my original Unos (bought new in 2002) says about cleaning:

"To clean Nextel coated surfaces of the subwoofer only use a sponge or foam! Dust can be carefully removed with a vacuum cleaner and a duster brush.

IMPORTANT: never use normal soft fabrics ... Only dry-clean ... never use wet detergents".

I had these speakers for 17 years with no flaking or any other damage to the Nextel surface. Sold in "as new" condition after 17 years with zero financial loss - not a penny!

 

[Al M.]

Certainly Nextel is nothing new to Avantgarde. Their bass cabinets were finished with Nextel from early days. The User Manual of my original Unos (bought new in 2002) says about cleaning:

"To clean Nextel coated surfaces of the subwoofer only use a sponge or foam! Dust can be carefully removed with a vacuum cleaner and a duster brush.

IMPORTANT: never use normal soft fabrics ... Only dry-clean ... never use wet detergents".

I had these speakers for 17 years with no flaking or any other damage to the Nextel surface. Sold in "as new" condition after 17 years with zero financial loss - not a penny!

My old speakers had Nextel coating too. No flaking.

 

[nirodha]

By roughening the JMLC or using nextel paint it reduces reflections and the brightness.

If there was ever a candidate for blind testing, this is it

 

[matakana]

My thoughts on imaging and soundstaging. Some of this is basic but I like to be clear on definitions as I have had several instances where me and another person would use the same term but come to find out we had different definitions for this term.

When setting up speakers imaging just "happens" and come along for the ride. When the speakers are aligned properly for tone and timing we natually get imaging. These images are spread around depening on the path length of the sound from the instument/singer to the two stero microphones. Some of the images are big, like a clarinet or a vocalist. But some of the "images" are very small, such as the "air" inside a concert hall. The more aligned the speakers the more stable the images. I know we have all heard systems where the muscians in an orchestra seem to be moving around a lot. For example the clarinet sometimes sits in his seat and sometimes goes to visit the violins and sometimes goes to visit the horns. This is frequency dependent imaging and is a result of improper speaker alignment.

The collection of all of the sonic images is the soundfield or soundstage. The sound field (The collection of everything) should extend from wall to wall and floor to ceiling. The perception of distand (depth) comes from the relative loudness of recorded instruments. If the speakers tone (Frequency response) is messed up then the depth will be off.

I always have issues with the speakers being close (less than 5 feet) to the front wall as my eyes and my ears don't agree on how far away something is becasue I am staring at the wall. If you have speakers close to the front wall I would suggest listening in the dark. This will help. I have heard fantastic soundstage with the speakers relatively close to the front wall. (Wall to wall --- floor to ceiling) but depth always seemed like it was climbing the wall rather than extending out into flat space.

The Trios are about 13 feet or so form the front wall. My ear is about 11 feet from the tweeter. And my ear is about 5' from the rear wall.

The soundfield from the Trios extends from the speaker backward and is fully populated with instruments. It is like I am looking at an orchestra. But there is also sound in the upper left and right corners (or anywhere else) if it is on the recording. WIth that said the sound is very direct. You can very easily feel the music.

I have heard some people say "horns don't image" or they "don't image well" or "Horns don't have depth" etc. None of this is true for the Avantgarde Trio. However, set them up poorly and all bets are off on what kind of sound you will hear (or see).

I hope you don’t mind me asking, since you list ASI , I presume ( acoustic system international ) are you using the resonators? Thank you.

 

[sbnx]

Not yet. They should arrive tomorrow and I will experiment with them with the Duo GT first.

However, I do use the Neodio B2 with the Trios to great effect.

I used to be in total denial about these types of devices. However, I have come to realize the power they have to sculpt the soundfield. I don't really understand the psychoacoustics at play but whatever it is it is strong stuff.

 

[sbnx]

I have not heard the mezzo. Not until axpona.

 

[bonzo75]

Guess you didn’t…. To quote Harpo Marx: ‘Nuff said’

I already replied to you I haven't heard the new mezzo, but I did not find any difference between the various duos, they were all equally bad and no similarity to the trios.

 

[nirodha]

I have not heard the mezzo. Not until axpona.

Nice! I hope to hear them next month. Out of my financial grasp but still looking forward to it. Still saving up for the GT iTron

 

[sbnx]

I will be in the AG room at AXPONA quite a bit. It would be great to meet a forum member. If you see me please stop by for a chat.

 

[Hear Here]

I already replied to you I haven't heard the new mezzo, but I did not find any difference between the various duos, they were all equally bad and no similarity to the trios.

We all know you don't like them, but haven't we heard your rants against non-Trio Avantgardes enough times?

The fact is that Duos are exceptionally popular (compared with Trios) because they cost very much less, can physically fit into many more homes and they sound almost as good when properly set up - though I agree not quite as good.

In many homes Duos are likely to sound better, as Trios need very large rooms to outshine Duos and relatively few people have such large rooms.

 

[bonzo75]

We all know you don't like them, but haven't we heard your rants against non-Trio Avantgardes enough times?

So now I am not allowed to answer a specific question, especially when the guy who asked the question comes back a few days later highlighting that question thinking I have not replied to it?

 

[bonzo75]

In many homes Duos are likely to sound better, as Trios need very large rooms to outshine Duos and relatively few people have such large rooms.

While trios might not sound good in certain places due to size, I can’t see how duos would sound good anywhere. The problem for them is not the room