Vinyl rips

[caesar]

In some ways the vinyl rips are better because when ripped the "right way", stylus microphonics that smear musical details are eliminated. And boy, can you hear the difference on a quality rip! Most people just don't realize it because they never heard it.

 

[caesar]

Does anyone know what the best, cost-no-object ADC is?

 

[caesar]

And how good of a turntable do you need to have make outstanding rips?

 

[Bruce B]

Does anyone know what the best, cost-no-object ADC is?

Over the past 10yr, I've tried maybe 2-3 dozen A/D converters. The best I've heard are, in no particular order:

1. Grimm AD1
2. Forssell MADA-2
3. MSB Studio Platinum
4. Merging Horus
5. EMM Labs ADC 8IV

I still have the EMM Labs and Horus.

 

[bonzo75]

Over the past 10yr, I've tried maybe 2-3 dozen A/D converters. The best I've heard are, in no particular order:

1. Grimm AD1
2. Forssell MADA-2
3. MSB Studio Platinum
4. Merging Horus
5. EMM Labs ADC 8IV

I still have the EMM Labs and Horus.

So if you use a TAscam recorder the quality won't be anywhere near these ADCs?

 

[Bruce B]

So if you use a TAscam recorder the quality won't be anywhere near these ADCs?

Nope!

But the good thing about the Tascam is that it has digital in/out and as funds become available, you can get a decent A/D converter to use with it!

 

[bonzo75]

Nope!

But the good thing about the Tascam is that it has digital in/out and as funds become available, you can get a decent A/D converter to use with it!

So if I ripped an extremely well mastered original vinyl on a Tascam, vs an Average mastered vinyl on a SOTA ADC, I assume the Tascam rip will sound better, i.e. because the mastering outweighs the difference in ADCs?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

And how good of a turntable do you need to have make outstanding rips?

I can tell the difference on the 2xdsd rips I have that my arm is one level better and I use the Herzan....when I compare my 'live' vinyl to the ripped vinyl even though the electronics chain is otherwise identical.

so every small step up in vinyl performance come thru clearly on the rips.

how good does the vinyl need to be? such an open ended question. maybe one way to answer that would be that if 'live' vinyl in your system is clearly more musically satisfying than your digital then it's likely worth ripping. another thing I would say is you simply cannot hold back great software. if you have great sounding records that are clean and good pressings or 45's mostly then their rips will likely be enjoyable.

all that said the rips are not very close to the 'live' vinyl in my particular system, but are almost always better than any other digital masterings to my ears. and I listen to the 2xdsd rips a lot of the time.

YMMV

 

[Bruce B]

So if I ripped an extremely well mastered original vinyl on a Tascam, vs an Average mastered vinyl on a SOTA ADC, I assume the Tascam rip will sound better, i.e. because the mastering outweighs the difference in ADCs?

All I can say is probably, with all else being equal (ie: TT/Arm/Cart/Phono Pre). But then again, you're no longer comparing A/D converters but different mastering/vinyl.

 

[TBone]

So if I ripped an extremely well mastered original vinyl on a Tascam, vs an Average mastered vinyl on a SOTA ADC, I assume the Tascam rip will sound better, i.e. because the mastering outweighs the difference in ADCs?

Mastering is the key, even with 16/44 rips. At least within my system, the interconnect from pre-amp to recorder made more of a sonic difference than the recorder.

 

[Bruce B]

And how good of a turntable do you need to have make outstanding rips?

For just the TT.... I'd say the threshold would be around $3-5k. I wouldn't do it on a Rega, Music Hall or whatever. I'd certainly do it on a VPI Classic/Prime, SME 10 or something of that sort.

 

[caesar]

I can tell the difference on the 2xdsd rips I have that my arm is one level better and I use the Herzan....when I compare my 'live' vinyl to the ripped vinyl even though the electronics chain is otherwise identical.

so every small step up in vinyl performance come thru clearly on the rips.

how good does the vinyl need to be? such an open ended question. maybe one way to answer that would be that if 'live' vinyl in your system is clearly more musically satisfying than your digital then it's likely worth ripping. another thing I would say is you simply cannot hold back great software. if you have great sounding records that are clean and good pressings or 45's mostly then their rips will likely be enjoyable.

all that said the rips are not very close to the 'live' vinyl in my particular system, but are almost always better than any other digital masterings to my ears. and I listen to the 2xdsd rips a lot of the time.

YMMV

Thanks, Mike. As someone who owns a state of the art system, how would you compare the best possible vinyl rip with your analog setup? What's missing?

 

[Bruce B]

Thanks, Mike. As someone who owns a state of the art system, how would you compare the best possible vinyl rip with your analog setup? What's missing?

You could also ask Mike about the vinyl rips that John Ellison did years ago and had Mike try to identify the "live" vs. ripped.....

 

[caesar]

For just the TT.... I'd say the threshold would be around $3-5k. I wouldn't do it on a Rega, Music Hall or whatever. I'd certainly do it on a VPI Classic/Prime, SME 10 or something of that sort.

Very interesting, Bruce. Seems so little, at least in audiophile terms. Does a turntable that costs more produce better results? And how much of the analog chain sound signature gets passed along to the rip?

 

[Bruce B]

Very interesting, Bruce. Seems so little, at least in audiophile terms. Does a turntable that costs more produce better results? And how much of the analog chain sound signature gets passed along to the rip?

Quite a bit actually. Usually, the higher up in price, you get mainly lower noise floor and with better phono pre's, you won't have to worry so much about ticks/pops.
We did a CD years ago at Mike's place with Winston (FIM), comparing cartridges. Jun Fukamachi
I think we used Mike's Sirius TT and a very transparent A/D converter. Even different cartridges are easily identified.

 

[TBone]

Hi, any impressions on how well mastered vinyl rips played through a dac sound compared to the original vinyl played on a TT? Is it worth ripping well mastered vinyl or should one stick to finding the CD or dsd download?

Been ripping for years; many years ago it was pointed out that many vinyl rips actually sounded better than the CD. Some would attest that any difference(s) were based on the rip capturing the warmer sound of vinyl. Not entirely true, for me at least, it's not so much about the digital copy being equal to the vinyl mother because any sonic difference which exist between digital recorders is much smaller than the inherit quality of the LP mastering/pressing plus the capability of turntable and its individual components. Therefore, although I archive LPs based on future digital convenience, I also rip based on the quality of the LP pressing, either superior or offering a different EQ/sound, when compared to its digital counterpart.

A recent rip/example: PF Animals (sheep, r.ch)...

CD (CK68521)

LP (JC34474) rip


In this case, the rip sounds less compressed/limited compared to the CD.

 

[Bruce B]

So how is everyone adjusting gain/attenuation of their A/D converters? I love the Horus for being able to increase/attenuate the analog signal, including the mic pre's.
This would allow for attenuation if there is clipping or gain for early albums that were not recorded as hot.

 

[Chris F]

This is a good question; I too would like to know how other people do their needledrop gain structure.

I have my phono amp set to the minimum gain (54dB for Lyra Kleos) since it has by far the hardest job and I'm pretty sure the lowest setting gives the best SNR performance. I then have the DA-3000 reference level set as low (-9dB) as it will go and then I add an additional ~8dB of gain on the (balanced) input. This is all still in the pre-ADC analog domain and results in program peaks around -6dB.

My setup is unusual though since I record pre-RIAA with the Seta phono amp/Pure Vinyl. I have the (digital) RIAA filter configured to add another 10dB. I'm pretty sure that normally this is done inside the phono pre as an additional gain stage. Finally during editing I bring it up as high as I can get it (usually -0.03dB) in the digital domain.

So in total I have 4 gain stages: phono-pre (analog) -> tascam da-3000 ADC (analog) -> RIAA filter (digital) -> program normalization/mastering (digital)

 

[TBone]

At present, my phono gain is set to 57db (min35,max75). I send the signal direct from pre to my professional sony recorder which offers DSP. I utilize the Sony's SBM feature, and sometimes it's balance control. I don't use its available DSP features based on EQ and limiters, or other options, preferring a more flat like transfer. I even manually fade in/out (if required) and control track#ing, even thought this can be done using DSP.

I manually pre-set gain on the recorder to record the LP peaks as close to 0db as possible, without clipping. But as you can clearly see on my LP rip (example above), clipping can still occur. It's important to note that on many pressings/recordings, such as some MFSL LP's, which have low recorded gain, with my recorders manual gain set to max, peaks are still well under -2db. On other LP's, I have to back-off recorded gain to ~60% or everything clips, not just the peaks.

The eventual success (SQ) of the recording isn't really dictated at the recording stage; the real "work" with a good needle drop happens during the pre-recording stages, predominantly the prep/cleaning of the LP to achieve minimum vinyl noise and the precise setting of SRA - per individual LP. (I don't adjust individual SRA per LP when casually listening, however when it comes to archiving/recording, I attempt to "focus-in" on the best possible sound quality.)