Valin's Q5 TAS Cover, Review - Dull, Dispassionate, Defensive - Doesn't belong in TAS

caesar

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Ceasar could you get specific and help me out here? I've read this comment stated a hundred different ways and it still makes no sense to me. If the guy in the next seat scratching his cojones is on the recording, of course I want my system to be able to reproduce it. How is that analytical? What is it about a system/speakers incapable of reproducing everything that is on the recording that is better at helping you experience the musical event?

I have listened to many "euphonic" systems. I still don't get it. But perhaps no one has explained it to me well enough.

Tim

Phelonious, you always ask the tough ones. Since you say you have heard a lot of euphonic systems, I am guessing are not impoverished in your audio system experiences and thus I am hoping my examples will make sense to you. What I mean by analytic, in most simple terms I can state, is that analytic gear puts the sound under the microscope. One can hear the details such as if the guy has hair or no hair on his cojones as he is scratching them with his nails. Instead, I am interested when the gear designer, instead of spotlighting the ball scratching, bakes those details into the musical whole. Some brands like Bryston, dCS, and this Magico speaker over-focus on those artifacts and they cater to audiophiles who either have impoverished live musical experiences or are just interested in hearing and discovering those details in the sound instead of losing themselves in the musical. However, brands like Naim, Ayre, Dartzeel, Luxman, etc., have those rich details yet let the listener focus on the music itself instead of the details. When I go to a show, my mind tunes out the guy whispering to his wife in a near by seat or some guy with a cold. I want my system to present the music (not the sound, not the artifacts!) so I can do the same at home.

To Valin's credit, he covers this topic in his review. Borrowing a marketing analogy, think of audiophiles in market segments and he describes these segments. We have said this many times on this site - audio is a subjective experience. Some want to hear the details and think it's hi-fi while others want a musical show and think sound under the microscope is not hi-fi. So sounds like Valin has reviewed the perfect speaker for you.
 

caesar

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Caesar

I have often heard the term "analytical" tacked on linear, non-euphonic gears. .. I would advise to hold judgment until audition.



Good point Frantz. I trust Valin and Fremer and Sircom. My comments are not about questioning their description of the sound but more about how dispassionately Valin's review is of something he is in love with and whether this speaker belongs on the cover of TAS vs. in a new magazine he should start called the Truthful Record.
 

caesar

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When the reviewer is used to a huge artificial bump in the mid-bass, his/hers perception is skewed. Then, when they hear something more linear and more accurate, it doesn't sound right to them. Apparently, even a well respected reviewer like Fremer can be fooled as can you by choosing to believe his description over others.



That's a good point. Or maybe with certain kinds of music like rock you want that artificial hump.
 

caesar

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The only review that I ever abide by is the one that I give to myself upon HEARING any gear that I am interested in. I learnt a long time ago that if you buy any gear based upon a review in a magazine or online, then you have only yourself to blame for the outcome.
IMHO, reading one, two or a hundred reviews and then making a purchase decision based upon said reviews is simply asking for trouble.:(
Reading about gear in magazines isn't terribly interesting to me except to give me an idea as to how the piece is made, who made it and here's the biggie......Looking at the pictures to see what the thing looks like. ( Have you noticed that TAS has gotten a little better with their pictures in the last few years and S'phile has slipped in this regard......S'phile's close-ups of the amps front handle and no other shots don't really do much for me:D).

I understand where you are coming from. Ideally, someone actually buying would read about it, hear it at shows, hear it at a dealer, and hear it in his room.

And yes, as far as photography goes, I think it's called "cost reduction".
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Phelonious, you always ask the tough ones.

It's in the job description.

Since you say you have heard a lot of euphonic systems, I am guessing are not impoverished in your audio system experiences and thus I am hoping my examples will make sense to you.

I have. I've even owned a few. And in my experience "euphonic" can mean many different things, depending upon the taste of the person who has deemed a system to be "euphonic."

What I mean by analytic, in most simple terms I can state, is that analytic gear puts the sound under the microscope. One can hear the details such as if the guy has hair or no hair on his cojones as he is scratching them with his nails.

Preliminary question (more later): Is the sound of the hair on those cojones or the nails on the scratcher in a frequency range untouched by the music you're attempting to enjoy? Is it at a volume level below the noise floor of your "euphonic" system?

Instead, I am interested when the gear designer, instead of spotlighting the ball scratching, bakes those details into the musical whole.

How do you suppose the designer avoids spotlighting the scratching of the cojones without muting the sound of the brushes on the ride cymbal that covers much of the same range the cojones fall into? Does he have a special EVO-filled cojones-filtering capacitor?

Some brands like Bryston, dCS, and this Magico speaker over-focus on those artifacts and they cater to audiophiles who either have impoverished live musical experiences or are just interested in hearing and discovering those details in the sound instead of losing themselves in the musical.

Again, how do the find those artifacts, separate them from the music in the same bandwidth, and "over-focus" on them? The ability to do that would truly be "Magico!" but I just don't think it works that way. In the studio, particularly in a modern digital studio, you can go in, find a true artifact, isolate it and boost or cut a very narrow frequency that the worst of it resides in with only minimal impact on the music around it. In the design of an amplifier/preamp/DAC/speaker, even if you could anticipate all the artifacts of "clinicalness" that may occur in all the music that it could possibly play, this is not something the Gandalf could pull off, much less a mortal engineer.

However, brands like Naim, Ayre, Dartzeel, Luxman, etc., have those rich details yet let the listener focus on the music itself instead of the details.

Same statement, different words. Either these components have the goods to resolve these details or they don't. They are not smart systems and they cannot differentiate between what the individual audiophiles sitting in front of them think is analytical vs. musical.

When I go to a show, my mind tunes out the guy whispering to his wife in a near by seat or some guy with a cold. I want my system to present the music (not the sound, not the artifacts!) so I can do the same at home.

You're doing exactly the same thing when you sit down in front of your system. You may be aided by a system that exaggerates or mutes some part of its frequency response, or adds some distortion that smoothes details down for you a bit, or it may be psychological. But your system cannot resolve all the musical details and leave behind any "artifacts" in the same bandwidth, on the fly, with an infinitely variable dynamic that adjust to the music being played.

That, my friend, is simply outside of the scope of the current technology. That, at least now, is impossible.

Tim
 

mep

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Tim-Quit making sense.

Mark
 

caesar

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It's in the job description.



I have. I've even owned a few. And in my experience "euphonic" can mean many different things, depending upon the taste of the person who has deemed a system to be "euphonic."



Preliminary question (more later): Is the sound of the hair on those cojones or the nails on the scratcher in a frequency range untouched by the music you're attempting to enjoy? Is it at a volume level below the noise floor of your "euphonic" system?



How do you suppose the designer avoids spotlighting the scratching of the cojones without muting the sound of the brushes on the ride cymbal that covers much of the same range the cojones fall into? Does he have a special EVO-filled cojones-filtering capacitor?



Again, how do the find those artifacts, separate them from the music in the same bandwidth, and "over-focus" on them? The ability to do that would truly be "Magico!" but I just don't think it works that way. In the studio, particularly in a modern digital studio, you can go in, find a true artifact, isolate it and boost or cut a very narrow frequency that the worst of it resides in with only minimal impact on the music around it. In the design of an amplifier/preamp/DAC/speaker, even if you could anticipate all the artifacts of "clinicalness" that may occur in all the music that it could possibly play, this is not something the Gandalf could pull off, much less a mortal engineer.



Same statement, different words. Either these components have the goods to resolve these details or they don't. They are not smart systems and they cannot differentiate between what the individual audiophiles sitting in front of them think is analytical vs. musical.



You're doing exactly the same thing when you sit down in front of your system. You may be aided by a system that exaggerates or mutes some part of its frequency response, or adds some distortion that smoothes details down for you a bit, or it may be psychological. But your system cannot resolve all the musical details and leave behind any "artifacts" in the same bandwidth, on the fly, with an infinitely variable dynamic that adjust to the music being played.

That, my friend, is simply outside of the scope of the current technology. That, at least now, is impossible.

Tim

Phelonious, you make the point very well for the analytical side and it sounds like this speaker is for you.

But not everyone is like you. The reality of this hobby is it is an experience. Different things trigger the emotional response to the music in us (and in the prcess drive people to spend crazy money to chase that emotional experience). Here are a few examples. A famous Grateful Dead musician thinks Mcintosh is the musical truth - and not any other brand - and he can own any brand he wants. Peter McGrath thinks Playback Designs is the musical truth - over dCS or anything else. A musician from a world famous orchestra I ran into likes YG speakers, not Magico, driven by Manley, which I personally find a bit euphonic. A well recorded jazz pianist I know really likes vintage CJ. I personally think it is euphonic, but he thinks it is the musical truth. Maybe it is because it helps him remember his family and childhood and the good life- but that is his experience and he loves listening to his system. A couple of recording artists I have run into, who have recorded some of the world's best, think Moses brought down Naim from the mountain top. They tell me Naim gear is exactly what the recording sessions sound like, not when played through dCS, which they find thick and dull and boring...

So because there are so many different ways to trigger an emotional response, there are different market segments to meet these perceived needs. And there will be manufacturers who will step up and deliver to meet the consumer need. Whether you disagree with it or think it is dumb and irrational is irrelevant. Emotion, or a desire to have a powerful emotional response to the music, is what drives people in this hobby. It is what it is.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Phelonious, you make the point very well for the analytical side and it sounds like this speaker is for you.

Hmmm...I didn't mean to make a point for the "analytical" side. I meant to make the point that if a component/speaker/system reveals less artifacts, it also reveals less music. There is really no way around that. You can't have a less "analytical" system that is more/as resolving. Now, you can have false detail; lots of cheap studio monitors (and a whole lot of, but not all, Naim stuff for that matter) are guilty of this one -- an exaggerated, slightly edgy upper midrange that at first seems more "revealing" but eventually just becomes tiring. To me, anyway. If that's what Magicos sound like, they would not make me happy. The truth is, I am a detail freak. But if I couldn't get almost headphone-like detail resolution from speakers without those juiced upper mids, I'd probably be seeking euphonic systems myself. I can't stand hissy, sibilant, glaring treble. Nothing will ruin my listening experience and drive me from a room faster. Thankfully I can get headphone-like detail resolution without those juiced-up upper mids.

But not everyone is like you.

Thank God for that.

The reality of this hobby is it is an experience. Different things trigger the emotional response to the music in us (and in the prcess drive people to spend crazy money to chase that emotional experience). Here are a few examples. A famous Grateful Dead musician thinks Mcintosh is the musical truth - and not any other brand - and he can own any brand he wants. Peter McGrath thinks Playback Designs is the musical truth - over dCS or anything else. A musician from a world famous orchestra I ran into likes YG speakers, not Magico, driven by Manley, which I personally find a bit euphonic. A well recorded jazz pianist I know really likes vintage CJ. I personally think it is euphonic, but he thinks it is the musical truth. Maybe it is because it helps him remember his family and childhood and the good life- but that is his experience and he loves listening to his system. A couple of recording artists I have run into, who have recorded some of the world's best, think Moses brought down Naim from the mountain top. They tell me Naim gear is exactly what the recording sessions sound like, not when played through dCS, which they find thick and dull and boring...

So because there are so many different ways to trigger an emotional response, there are different market segments to meet these perceived needs. And there will be manufacturers who will step up and deliver to meet the consumer need. Whether you disagree with it or think it is dumb and irrational is irrelevant. Emotion, or a desire to have a powerful emotional response to the music, is what drives people in this hobby. It is what it is.

Yes it is, and people should enjoy what they enjoy. They can even think what they think, but if what they think is that they can resolve more recorded musical detail and less recorded artifacts at the same time, I find myself compelled to point out the impossibility of that.

Tim

PS: Those hissy, sibilant, glaring trebles I can't stand? Sometimes they're pretty hard to avoid. Sometimes they're in the recording (or the mastering). Rather than run from the room, I have a digital eq pre-set that dips a couple of db in what is usually just the right place. I've labeled it "euphonic." :) T
 
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JackD201

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Tim-Quit making sense.

Mark

I think it isn't all about FR and is an oversimplification. Two components with flat FR may be identical with a test signal but still sound different with musical content. From what I've gleaned here, I think rise times, damping factor and THD relative to frequency play a big part. These together determine how the musical envelope of attack, sustain and decay is recreated. Pink noise is constant so FR is averaged. Measure pulses and differences will likely become apparent. Put lots of pulses together like real music and there is a cumulative effect. :)
 

rbbert

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I find both Jonathon Valin and Michael Fremer to be relatively useless as reviewers (to me). Not only do I not agree with their tastes, I can't even draw reasonable conclusions about a product's sound from their reviews. Contrast that with someone like Sam Tellig (Gilette), with whom I often disagree about relative ranking of a piece of equipment, but from whose description I can usually form a pretty good opinion of the component's sound.
 

docvale

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The existence of this thread made me curious to read this Q5 review, so I did it...

Before sharing my comments with you, I have to agree with those folks who stress the unbelievable incidence of the world's best something that constantly appears on TAS. I used to be a subscriber and I didn't renew my subscription, as most reviews were, as it's now on fashion on some Italian audio-forums, fried air. The paradox is that is certain cases there's even a significant number of world's best something... :rolleyes: just think about the list of the best digital source from RH: there's one for every single parameter of evaluation :rolleyes::rolleyes:

This notwithstanding, I think this review is the best among the recent JV's ones I've read over the last couple of years. There's some science, some measurements, some explanations, some considerations. JV says he would buy this speaker, as it represents a concentrate of good features that he had never found before grouped on the same speaker. What's wrong with it? He said, for the 100th time, he found the world's best speaker (even if he denied it ;)), but, this time, he provided many explanations...
I agree with the forumer that stated that Fremer's comments on the bass of the Q5 could had not been ignored by any other review. I can add that, in a world in which the audio-reviewers are permanently exposed to the tough criticism of readers, buyers and sellers, maybe this more "controlled" style from JV is also a response, an adaptation of his reviewer's approach.
 

KeithR

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Ceasar could you get specific and help me out here? I've read this comment stated a hundred different ways and it still makes no sense to me. If the guy in the next seat scratching his cojones is on the recording, of course I want my system to be able to reproduce it. How is that analytical? What is it about a system/speakers incapable of reproducing everything that is on the recording that is better at helping you experience the musical event?

I have listened to many "euphonic" systems. I still don't get it. But perhaps no one has explained it to me well enough.

Tim

I think you ask rhetorical questions, Tim. You think tubes are nothing but euphony, but don't admit that even vastly low distortion SS has harmonics that are very offensive to our ears. which is right? you tell me.

i think you also associate "detail" with "correct" as a corollary as well.
 

KeithR

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btw, to all the guys bashing JV's room---he at least posts pretty spectacular room measurements these days. though i can't stand the reviews either.
 

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