At times, it almost seems like music is in the breeze. The speed, ease and coherence (mids do 90% of the work and are wired direct to the amp) are electrostatic-like, but with absolutely none of the dynamic compression (macro and micro) you hear sometimes in panels and so many other so-called dynamic speakers. The multiple drivers cut distortion drastically, and the nature of line arrays is such that they project sound and load the room in a way that makes them a bit more independent of it. Imaging size and depth are almost spooky to, though some speakers are more pinpoint in an L/R way. I'd go on a bit more specifically, but I'm thumbing this reply. Realize this sounds like an owner rave, but don't think my critical facilities have abandoned me, it's just what the speakers are. Weakness would be not quite seamless integration with sub, but I think they've addressed this with the new software and drivers.
Tube Pre-Amps: Shindo, CJ ART 3, ARC Ref 5...advice!
- Thread starter LL21
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At times, it almost seems like music is in the breeze. The speed, ease and coherence (mids do 90% of the work and are wired direct to the amp) are electrostatic-like, but with absolutely none of the dynamic compression (macro and micro) you hear sometimes in panels and so many other so-called dynamic speakers. The multiple drivers cut distortion drastically, and the nature of line arrays is such that they project sound and load the room in a way that makes them a bit more independent of it. Imaging size and depth are almost spooky to, though some speakers are more pinpoint in an L/R way. I'd go on a bit more specifically, but I'm thumbing this reply. Realize this sounds like an owner rave, but don't think my critical facilities have abandoned me, it's just what the speakers are. Weakness would be not quite seamless integration with sub, but I think they've addressed this with the new software and drivers.
Syren
I have owned a Tron Syren Ref (which means all silver through out and higher spec parts), and I could not be happier. It has performed flawlessly for the four years I have had it. I no longer look at preamps anymore.
I have owned a Tron Syren Ref (which means all silver through out and higher spec parts), and I could not be happier. It has performed flawlessly for the four years I have had it. I no longer look at preamps anymore.
Lloydelee21,
My personal opinion - and it just that, is that you should upgrade your source. I know someone who upgraded his act to act 2.2, and when the unit came back 3 or 4 weeks later he thought he could tell the difference between the old and the new. That's how small the improvements are at that level. Like I said above, the other units are probably just different flavors, with 10-15% improvements at most over what you have.
If you purchase a new preamp, you will take a 50% hit on the resale value for a minor improvement, and that is why I would focus on the source, especially if you running an Oppo as your transport. You can pick up a 10 year old Rega Planet for $200 or so, and get a substantial improvement.
Another thought is to get a whole new disc player instead of just the transport. I would not worry at all about no new CDs being available in 2015. There is no talk of a new format from the record companies or the Sonys and Pioneers, so there will still be CDs manufactured, and surely there will be more downloaded music (hopefully hirez), but you would always be able to sell the unit to someone who has a lot of CDs.
I glean from your system that you value musicality above all with Zanden, CJ. etc., yet you are looking for "far greater purity of tonality, microdynamics." Personally I would look at and listen to the dcs products, or Boulder, as well as Playback Designs, which is more moderately priced (as well as other brands I have not yet heard). All are superb at getting that last bit of information off the disk, which is the key to greater microdynamics, transparency, and purer tonality, and will give you what you are loooking for.
Enjoy the Journey
Thanks Ceasar,
That is helpful to know. And i take your point about ACT 2.2...having spoken with a few people, i get the sense it is definitively better...but not necessarily quantum leap. Whereas, having compared the Oppo transport to a Unico player, i think it is "so-so" as a transport. Its primary strength is that it plays every format i can think of including, of course, blu-ray. so even if i upgrade to a proper CD transport...i can always keep the Oppo for (very) good blu-ray movies/dvd upsampling.
So, as you say, the transport is the weakest link. I had a good friend run his Esoteric X1 direct into my Zanden...and it was stunning. Truly stunning. So perhaps i need to get a little more comfortable that: a) CDs will be around several years longer, and b) if i bought a whole bunch of CDs between now and 2015...i could certainly get comfortable that i own a solid collection of music that i am happy to play direct on my Transport/Zanden system...and since the Zanden can take several inputs...i could always add a server to it for newer music whenever that day comes.
As for musicality, i think the Zanden DAC beats the DCS Elgar Plus and ARC CD7 by a solid margin (imho), and i came quite close twice to buying the Elgar Plus a few years ago and also did an A/B to the ARC CD7 and Krell 505 before buying the Zanden. I cannot say how the Zanden compares to the new Scarlatti or PD...but it would take a ton of money to buy a new DAC to compete with the Zanden to my ears, and that is not something i feel is the appropriate next step at this time.
Thanks for the good food for thought. i am going to listen to the Zanden transport at the end of this month...brutally expensive, but it will at least show me what the Zanden is truly capable of. I suspect given synergies, it will be even better than what i heard with the Esoteric...which was already staggeringly good. Extremely solid, dimensional sound. The Oppo as a transport was unfairly outclassed in the comparison! i'll keep you posted.
That is helpful to know. And i take your point about ACT 2.2...having spoken with a few people, i get the sense it is definitively better...but not necessarily quantum leap. Whereas, having compared the Oppo transport to a Unico player, i think it is "so-so" as a transport. Its primary strength is that it plays every format i can think of including, of course, blu-ray. so even if i upgrade to a proper CD transport...i can always keep the Oppo for (very) good blu-ray movies/dvd upsampling.
So, as you say, the transport is the weakest link. I had a good friend run his Esoteric X1 direct into my Zanden...and it was stunning. Truly stunning. So perhaps i need to get a little more comfortable that: a) CDs will be around several years longer, and b) if i bought a whole bunch of CDs between now and 2015...i could certainly get comfortable that i own a solid collection of music that i am happy to play direct on my Transport/Zanden system...and since the Zanden can take several inputs...i could always add a server to it for newer music whenever that day comes.
As for musicality, i think the Zanden DAC beats the DCS Elgar Plus and ARC CD7 by a solid margin (imho), and i came quite close twice to buying the Elgar Plus a few years ago and also did an A/B to the ARC CD7 and Krell 505 before buying the Zanden. I cannot say how the Zanden compares to the new Scarlatti or PD...but it would take a ton of money to buy a new DAC to compete with the Zanden to my ears, and that is not something i feel is the appropriate next step at this time.
Thanks for the good food for thought. i am going to listen to the Zanden transport at the end of this month...brutally expensive, but it will at least show me what the Zanden is truly capable of. I suspect given synergies, it will be even better than what i heard with the Esoteric...which was already staggeringly good. Extremely solid, dimensional sound. The Oppo as a transport was unfairly outclassed in the comparison! i'll keep you posted.
The only reason I brought up the other units is because the Zanden transport costs about $30K. You can buy the highly regarded Playback Designs CD player for about $15K. You can then feed the signal into either the Zanden DAC or just use the Playback Designs DAC.
But yes, if you can swing the Zanden transport you will be in heaven, no doubt. (And heck, you only live once!)
Good luck!
But yes, if you can swing the Zanden transport you will be in heaven, no doubt. (And heck, you only live once!)
Good luck!
Caesar,
As i said..."brutally expensive"...
i really do want to hear the Zanden transport and am truly looking forward to it in a few weeks. it would need to be revelatory...inconceivably revelatory to make sense on an outdated format. i know Detlof (different site) has owned the Zanden transport/DAC for years...and has stopped using it a few years ago...last we communicated, he uses Empirical Audio's pacecar i believe and a computer server. he said it is better than the Zanden transport.
As i said..."brutally expensive"...
i really do want to hear the Zanden transport and am truly looking forward to it in a few weeks. it would need to be revelatory...inconceivably revelatory to make sense on an outdated format. i know Detlof (different site) has owned the Zanden transport/DAC for years...and has stopped using it a few years ago...last we communicated, he uses Empirical Audio's pacecar i believe and a computer server. he said it is better than the Zanden transport.
Lloyd - Sorry to insist, but I have been there... and the Anthileon with the Elektra preamp I had some years back was a system whete one just could not tell if the sound was coming from a tube or SS based amolification, I still miss it
Hi Flez007, on the contrary...i respect your conviction and appreciate that you'd like me to consider in an effort to make the right decision for me. Always a good thing, so thanks for "insisting". i will look for a place to listen to Gryphon pre...though that is unfortunately not easy to find. The only thing i ever bought without hearing it was the Antileon...it was s/hand from someone i knew and trusted. And i'd read everything and spoken to numerous people i trusted who knew the amp well. i am pleased i bought it (s/hand) and dont expect to sell it for years to come. my last amp (CJmv60) went a full 10 years and while i think it was an amazing amp, it is not in the league of this amp. in any event, since i am not planning on moving the Antileon on...perhaps a Gryphon pre (Electra, Allegro, Mirage) is at least worth a very serious listen. thanks again.
Hi all,
I just got in contact with local guy who sells Shindo...he is bringing one buy for a brief audition this weekend. Very excited. I have read such positive things about these, it will educational to hear them for myself...particularly in my own system with my own music. I will be hearing Zanden 3000 in around 10 days in Hong Kong. Another winner, from what i've read. Have also spoken with Tron about their Syren II which is coming out soon for me to hear. Will continue to post my own thoughts as i hear them each...thanks for any other suggestions/guiding comments.
I just got in contact with local guy who sells Shindo...he is bringing one buy for a brief audition this weekend. Very excited. I have read such positive things about these, it will educational to hear them for myself...particularly in my own system with my own music. I will be hearing Zanden 3000 in around 10 days in Hong Kong. Another winner, from what i've read. Have also spoken with Tron about their Syren II which is coming out soon for me to hear. Will continue to post my own thoughts as i hear them each...thanks for any other suggestions/guiding comments.
Hi All,
I have auditioned the Massetto in my home, and also scheduled to hear the Zanden 3000. I have spoken with maker of Tron Syren and am waiting until one is available for audition. I have heard ARC Ref 5...may bring it home for a listen. I have not located Rex, Einstein or Gryphon pre's.
Massetto - In a few words, i understand why the unbelievably loyal following. If you are looking for midrange magic...but wish to have a totally transparent pre, with very, very extended highs, and an extremely high level of detailing, Shindo delivers. And that, as many will attest, is difficult to do.
Many times, if you find warm, music, enriching midrange magic, it comes with a number of compromises...mushy bass, or a little fuzz in the detail area. very hard to get superb detailing and warm midrange in the same sound.
i also very quickly did find i was listening to the music...not to the sound of this or that...because i was focusing on evaluating the equipment, i had to listen to music and to sound...but it was easy to start listening to just music. so i totally appreciate the great appeal of this pre.
Compared to my CJ ACT 2?
I would not trade it, and to be very praiseworthy to the dealer here, he agreed with me. He did not push for a sale. I have asked to hear a V-R or Giscours which i have heard are even better.
Why no trade?
- The Massetto has very, very musical bass with good force...but it felt definitely a millisecond slow compared to ACT 2 which felt more "neutral" and more well-paced on Deep House, Rap. Bass on acoustic instruments was fine though still you could feel that milli-beat of slowness.
- The Massetto midrange was definitely more forward compared to the ACT 2...not in a way that initially made you feel like it was an unnatural voicing...rather, it seemed that your ear was drawn to be more focused on the midrange. (This is the way it seemed...until you went back to the CJ ACT 2 and realized the voices, strings were in fact a touch more forward)
- This forwardness was wonderful on Clapton, and all kinds of music, because so much happens in the midrange, letting it come forward a bit made you enjoy the musical message that so often gets delivered within this band.
- Why do i feel it was midrange forward? Because it did not always work on orchestral. Whereas i expected a more balanced delivery of the orchestra (and i have been going for 20 years)...i felt like i was mainly hearing the violins...very surprising balance.
Before anyone gets too uptight...this was what i heard in my system...which i admit is not composed of perfect components (none are)...and there may have been synergy issues...but it is what i heard, and the dealer of Shindo concurred with all of my observations who auditioned alongside me.
In conclusion, no pre is perfect...but i am definitively looking for a pre that introduces a sense of midrange magic that at the moment i have (but wish for more)...yet does not sacrifice detail, extension, dynamics, etc.
i am very impressed by what i heard ...i get that Shindo has a technically very accomplished way of delivering MUSIC...it just that the Massetto did not beat the ACT 2 such that i was ready to trade. what i came away with was...really, really, really wanting to hear the Vosne-Romanee or Giscours!
I have auditioned the Massetto in my home, and also scheduled to hear the Zanden 3000. I have spoken with maker of Tron Syren and am waiting until one is available for audition. I have heard ARC Ref 5...may bring it home for a listen. I have not located Rex, Einstein or Gryphon pre's.
Massetto - In a few words, i understand why the unbelievably loyal following. If you are looking for midrange magic...but wish to have a totally transparent pre, with very, very extended highs, and an extremely high level of detailing, Shindo delivers. And that, as many will attest, is difficult to do.
Many times, if you find warm, music, enriching midrange magic, it comes with a number of compromises...mushy bass, or a little fuzz in the detail area. very hard to get superb detailing and warm midrange in the same sound.
i also very quickly did find i was listening to the music...not to the sound of this or that...because i was focusing on evaluating the equipment, i had to listen to music and to sound...but it was easy to start listening to just music. so i totally appreciate the great appeal of this pre.
Compared to my CJ ACT 2?
I would not trade it, and to be very praiseworthy to the dealer here, he agreed with me. He did not push for a sale. I have asked to hear a V-R or Giscours which i have heard are even better.
Why no trade?
- The Massetto has very, very musical bass with good force...but it felt definitely a millisecond slow compared to ACT 2 which felt more "neutral" and more well-paced on Deep House, Rap. Bass on acoustic instruments was fine though still you could feel that milli-beat of slowness.
- The Massetto midrange was definitely more forward compared to the ACT 2...not in a way that initially made you feel like it was an unnatural voicing...rather, it seemed that your ear was drawn to be more focused on the midrange. (This is the way it seemed...until you went back to the CJ ACT 2 and realized the voices, strings were in fact a touch more forward)
- This forwardness was wonderful on Clapton, and all kinds of music, because so much happens in the midrange, letting it come forward a bit made you enjoy the musical message that so often gets delivered within this band.
- Why do i feel it was midrange forward? Because it did not always work on orchestral. Whereas i expected a more balanced delivery of the orchestra (and i have been going for 20 years)...i felt like i was mainly hearing the violins...very surprising balance.
Before anyone gets too uptight...this was what i heard in my system...which i admit is not composed of perfect components (none are)...and there may have been synergy issues...but it is what i heard, and the dealer of Shindo concurred with all of my observations who auditioned alongside me.
In conclusion, no pre is perfect...but i am definitively looking for a pre that introduces a sense of midrange magic that at the moment i have (but wish for more)...yet does not sacrifice detail, extension, dynamics, etc.
i am very impressed by what i heard ...i get that Shindo has a technically very accomplished way of delivering MUSIC...it just that the Massetto did not beat the ACT 2 such that i was ready to trade. what i came away with was...really, really, really wanting to hear the Vosne-Romanee or Giscours!
Did you try them with the REF 110? A friend of mine is looking for a recommendation for a full range speaker for a medium sized room to be used with an ARC REF110 and I thought about the Scaena's.
So i had a fantastic visit in Hong Kong with Chris from Audio Exotics. A truly knowledgeable professional who shares his passion and perfectionist approach to audio with great enthusiasm. I heard 1 of 2 all-Tidal reference systems in the world. The Ref pre, monos (2 sets of them) Tidal Sunray with T-1 Subs, dedicated power lines, Troy Grounding, and Stahldek Vekian transport/DAC. Whew! Resolution of an unparalleled nature. In reality, it actually gave me very good insights into the areas i have been focusing on for my own system (transport and grounding/PC/noisefloor), and in particular further honed my sense of what to expect when i introduce a different transport into my system.
i also heard Zanden transport/DAC, Troy Syren II and amps, plus Cessano reference horns. So much incredible equipment.
i also heard Zanden transport/DAC, Troy Syren II and amps, plus Cessano reference horns. So much incredible equipment.
Nice thread , im curious what you think of the zanden 3000 .
You also might want to add one more (no not more pre amps ....) just to make things easier (laugh)
I still like the nagra pre s.
Very clean and controlled for a tubed pre and very neutral , meaning not boring over time , and the plp has a very good phono included
You also might want to add one more (no not more pre amps ....) just to make things easier (laugh)
I still like the nagra pre s.
Very clean and controlled for a tubed pre and very neutral , meaning not boring over time , and the plp has a very good phono included
Lloydelee21,
The Audio Exotic room may be the best set-up in the world, at least on paper. It suredly demands very high expectations. Were there any areas that you found lacking? I'm curious how close to perfection one could get with a ground-up approach and no expense limit. So, what's the scoop on what it lacks?
Andromeda,
I did not hear Zanden pre...only Zanden full digital. The pre was tron Syren, but i did speak with chris at ae about Wavac, Zanden and shindo (i have heard Shindo with distributor here). in general, Zanden probably in btwn the 2 others...very neutral, a nice blend of refinement and detail. Shindo softer, graceful perhaps not as much dynamics (which i can confirm relative to my CJ ACT 2 having A/B's at home in my system with distributor). Wavac apparently very impressive sound, powerful and neutral...those who lean to shindo side may again find Zanden in the middle.
Robert - i spent 2 hours solid with AE and their 2 systems, using my own music. they have sparred no expense and it shows. Fanatical is the best word i can use to describe their approach. In partcular, i would say one would be hard pressed to find a system with as little ground, AC or other noise in the system. Astonishing. Full-on with no signal playing, the room is tomb silent. Or for another example, if u disconnect the Tron grounding units (which get rid of haze thru a common grounding of some sort to every piece of equipment), and the difference once the signal is turned on...is immediately apparent. The resolution is stunning. Keith Johnson delivers a spectrum of sound in his recordings you do not know is even there, until you hear it in this sytem. And i have Zanden, CJ, Gryphon and Wilson X-1/Grand Slamms in my home.
The Tideal room is well damped but still live. snap your finger and you really heard the fullness of the snap, but without echo, or without the room "swallowing" the snap. Tidal apparently came to setup the room. For a room this size (17ftx15ft), the system dominates the room visually, but they managed to get it to work which is impressive. So detailing, depth and realism are gargantuan leaps ahead of the best rooms i have been in (Sound by Singer NYC, Lyric - NYC, KJ - London, Metropolis - London, pvt homes). Lacks? here is where i find myself saying i listened to stunning sound reproduction...stunning and world-class scale...and where i would have traded some of that for a more mellifluous, magic in my sound.
i would never pretend to know it all...that is ridiculous and if anything, i learned a lot from AE...but i know what i like to hear. i prefer to listen to Clapton Unplugged on my system...Track 1 where the Crowd starts clapping is very detailed on Tidals...very...but sharp sounding with quite a bite like the recording was bright. AT home, it breathes life and feels very natural and easy...like a real crowd. no bite at all. i know due to my speaker placement, i could enjoy more depth though my width is a match to the Tidals in AE's room. and nosie floor and detail i am not winning any records like AE certainly is (i need to upgrade my transport and fanatically eliminate noise to do that)...but i enjoy my "music" not my sound, if you know what i mean, with all of its lesser flaws of less detail and higher noise floor.
Going to the second AE system (Zanden digital, Tron pre/amp, Cessario Ref speakers (the gigantic Beta?)...you get more breathe-of-life in your music. Clapton still a bit sharper than my tastes would prefer...but more life in general. i am not a horn guy, that much is clear, but i respect AE for having created another fanatically well-designed setup. Mainly, horns breathe life when done right...but for electronic deep house, etc...i need cones, with tubed electronics and a big-ass Servo sub (cut off above 35hz) to move the room with warm, magical sound that still has concrete foundation-like bass. Somehow the horn did not "compress" the air like when a cone starts really moving air.
finally, these are one person's observations on one of the worlds greatest, most fanatical dealers i have ever met. Chris is amazing and approachable...i admire what AE has done. i learned a ton, and know where i am missing things now that i have 2 references to listen to...which allows me to tailor my music even further to how i like to listen to it. my tastes run different to what i heard at AE, vaunted quality though it is. i obviously focus on technicals to a fairly big degree because that is ultiamtely the most likely path to great sound,...but i would trade technicals for life, magic, music over detail...which i feel like i have done relative to AE. Now, of course, i will focus on detail, noise floor having learned from AE...and hope i can bring mmagic even further along...but never sacrificing it for that detail/noise floor reduction...only enhancing it. hope that is clear...if you wish more detail, PM me. thanks.
I did not hear Zanden pre...only Zanden full digital. The pre was tron Syren, but i did speak with chris at ae about Wavac, Zanden and shindo (i have heard Shindo with distributor here). in general, Zanden probably in btwn the 2 others...very neutral, a nice blend of refinement and detail. Shindo softer, graceful perhaps not as much dynamics (which i can confirm relative to my CJ ACT 2 having A/B's at home in my system with distributor). Wavac apparently very impressive sound, powerful and neutral...those who lean to shindo side may again find Zanden in the middle.
Robert - i spent 2 hours solid with AE and their 2 systems, using my own music. they have sparred no expense and it shows. Fanatical is the best word i can use to describe their approach. In partcular, i would say one would be hard pressed to find a system with as little ground, AC or other noise in the system. Astonishing. Full-on with no signal playing, the room is tomb silent. Or for another example, if u disconnect the Tron grounding units (which get rid of haze thru a common grounding of some sort to every piece of equipment), and the difference once the signal is turned on...is immediately apparent. The resolution is stunning. Keith Johnson delivers a spectrum of sound in his recordings you do not know is even there, until you hear it in this sytem. And i have Zanden, CJ, Gryphon and Wilson X-1/Grand Slamms in my home.
The Tideal room is well damped but still live. snap your finger and you really heard the fullness of the snap, but without echo, or without the room "swallowing" the snap. Tidal apparently came to setup the room. For a room this size (17ftx15ft), the system dominates the room visually, but they managed to get it to work which is impressive. So detailing, depth and realism are gargantuan leaps ahead of the best rooms i have been in (Sound by Singer NYC, Lyric - NYC, KJ - London, Metropolis - London, pvt homes). Lacks? here is where i find myself saying i listened to stunning sound reproduction...stunning and world-class scale...and where i would have traded some of that for a more mellifluous, magic in my sound.
i would never pretend to know it all...that is ridiculous and if anything, i learned a lot from AE...but i know what i like to hear. i prefer to listen to Clapton Unplugged on my system...Track 1 where the Crowd starts clapping is very detailed on Tidals...very...but sharp sounding with quite a bite like the recording was bright. AT home, it breathes life and feels very natural and easy...like a real crowd. no bite at all. i know due to my speaker placement, i could enjoy more depth though my width is a match to the Tidals in AE's room. and nosie floor and detail i am not winning any records like AE certainly is (i need to upgrade my transport and fanatically eliminate noise to do that)...but i enjoy my "music" not my sound, if you know what i mean, with all of its lesser flaws of less detail and higher noise floor.
Going to the second AE system (Zanden digital, Tron pre/amp, Cessario Ref speakers (the gigantic Beta?)...you get more breathe-of-life in your music. Clapton still a bit sharper than my tastes would prefer...but more life in general. i am not a horn guy, that much is clear, but i respect AE for having created another fanatically well-designed setup. Mainly, horns breathe life when done right...but for electronic deep house, etc...i need cones, with tubed electronics and a big-ass Servo sub (cut off above 35hz) to move the room with warm, magical sound that still has concrete foundation-like bass. Somehow the horn did not "compress" the air like when a cone starts really moving air.
finally, these are one person's observations on one of the worlds greatest, most fanatical dealers i have ever met. Chris is amazing and approachable...i admire what AE has done. i learned a ton, and know where i am missing things now that i have 2 references to listen to...which allows me to tailor my music even further to how i like to listen to it. my tastes run different to what i heard at AE, vaunted quality though it is. i obviously focus on technicals to a fairly big degree because that is ultiamtely the most likely path to great sound,...but i would trade technicals for life, magic, music over detail...which i feel like i have done relative to AE. Now, of course, i will focus on detail, noise floor having learned from AE...and hope i can bring mmagic even further along...but never sacrificing it for that detail/noise floor reduction...only enhancing it. hope that is clear...if you wish more detail, PM me. thanks.
Lloydelee, That's what I am talking about, which seems to elude so many people. The difference between stunning sound and beautiful music. I can tune my system to bombard you with the lowest distortion, most impressive, most realistic sound. And yet, it does not suffice. When listening to a new system, I pay attention to whether I am tense or relaxed. What are my shoulders doing, am I able to lean back in the chair, etc? Some call it the last 5%, the law of diminishing returns. As in with many things in life, the last 5% is the most important.
I think you would appreciate having the Tripoint Troy in your system. This definitely lets the music flow and breathe in a very natural manner. It also removes distortions unlike anything else I've encountered.
I think you would appreciate having the Tripoint Troy in your system. This definitely lets the music flow and breathe in a very natural manner. It also removes distortions unlike anything else I've encountered.
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