Toward a Theory To Increase Mutual Understanding and Predictability

[jkeny]

Folsom, I'm not sure your 'immersion' is what I'm talking about - I don't believe speakers are really the source of the immersion illusion (given a reasonably normal sounding room) - I believe the immersive illusion is resulting from the electronics

 

[Folsom]

There's only one immersion. And there's no rules for what contributes to it.

 

[RogerD]

Thank you for being honest. I think whatever people prefer is perfectly respectable.

I don't see why it's hard to understand when you're getting closer to 2. You don't need to be in the studio to know it. The closer to 2 you are, the more you hear recording attributes. You hear more detail, you hear the character of the microphone, you hear the room they're in. It goes all the way to hearing something on the wall in the recording space. Distortion measurements will tell you if you're closer as well; and people do those all the time.



I don't think so. Option 1 doesn't want the sound of the studio that comes with it.

But overall people are often approaching 3 and 1, when they think they're after 2.

Well if the audio signal is uncorrupted you will hear the recording venue. I want to hear everything including tape hiss if present. I think the recording is what it is....if done poorly so be it. If it is excellent then I will enjoy it in all it's splendor. One must understand the variables in one system that presents a barrier to good reproduction. The thousands of pages written on this subject shows me that this basic understanding is most mis understood. So my goal has always been to transfer the audio signal in it's purist form all through the playback chain. A success is all I can ask for and all I need to accomplish.

 

[Folsom]

Roger, I believe that makes you a 2!

 

[RogerD]

Roger, I believe that makes you a 2!

Folsom actually 1 and 2; 1 in the context of reproduced sound. One in reality does not exist in a strict form,but in reproduction it can,only with limitations...mostly dynamics and size. But the size can be made to mimic the original and fool the brain.

 

[DaveC]

Folsom, I'm not sure your 'immersion' is what I'm talking about - I don't believe speakers are really the source of the immersion illusion (given a reasonably normal sounding room) - I believe the immersive illusion is resulting from the electronics

IMO everything is important, speaker crossovers are often a problem wrt preserving detail required... also, I think this is why there is a preference shown for smooth off-axis response and why controlled directivity speakers are often far superior.

Having good quality bass does help a lot and swarms can be very capable...

But I do agree if the electronics aren't capable there's no hope, you're forever limited. As RogerD said preserving the signal is key, to the point I consider interconnects and clean AC power a key component of achieving immersion. I also think this is explains morricab's preference for SET amps, very few SS amps make for an immersive soundstage.

 

[es347]

..my goal is to spend more time listening to my system than reading posts postulating what I'm supposed to be listening for

 

[Joe Whip]

+1

 

[amirm]

..my goal is to spend more time listening to my system than reading posts postulating what I'm supposed to be listening for

Darn, that is smart!

 

[morricab]

There's only one immersion. And there's no rules for what contributes to it.

I disagree here. My experience has been that the electronics are the main culprit in destroying an immersive feeling and that is because they are a main source of "synthetic " distortion that tell us what we are listening to is not natural.

 

[Folsom]

That has nothing to do with what I said.

 

[FrantzM]

I disagree here. My experience has been that the electronics are the main culprit in destroying an immersive feeling and that is because they are a main source of "synthetic " distortion that tell us what we are listening to is not natural.

Folsom, I'm not sure your 'immersion' is what I'm talking about - I don't believe speakers are really the source of the immersion illusion (given a reasonably normal sounding room) - I believe the immersive illusion is resulting from the electronics

There's only one immersion. And there's no rules for what contributes to it.

"Toward a Theory To Increase Mutual Understanding and Predictability" thread Title .

However based on this small sample of posts, we have a way to go.

FWIW. After more than 40 years in this hobby, I never knew electronics were that important when it comes to the notion of immersion. I would have thought speakers would be the main ingredient in being immersed in sound... ... And I would have thought there are ways , rules to achieve immersion. Once again we seem to be talking past each other with absolutes and unverifiable declarations.

 

[microstrip]

"Toward a Theory To Increase Mutual Understanding and Predictability" thread Title .

However based on this small sample of posts, we have a way to go.

FWIW. After more than 40 years in this hobby, I never knew electronics were that important when it comes to the notion of immersion. I would have thought speakers would be the main ingredient in being immersed in sound... ... And I would have thought there are ways , rules to achieve immersion.

I have referred to it so many times I did not find I need to say it this time - electronics (source and amplifier) are the main points in order to get "immersion" in a system. Different speakers will get you mostly different flavors.

IMHO it is why debates on electronics are usually more intense or even "immersive" than on speakers.[/QUOTE]

Once again we seem to be talking past each other with absolutes and unverifiable declarations.

My preferred quote of a famous audio scientist "Stereo, therefore, is not really a system at all but, rather, a basis for individual experimentation"

 

[Rodney Gold]

It has to be a combo.. room/speakers/electronics and most importantly the mastering of the music
Most of us have carefully crafted systems that overcome a lot of the physical limitations of sound reproduction..so it all boils down to emotion and content and arrangement of the source..
I have never had an immersive experience with lousily recorded music.. an emotional response maybe.. but no eargasms

 

[bonzo75]

It is a combo. Panels and cones do immersion differently, especially at lower cone price points. Also a MCH set up will change immersion

 

[morricab]

"Toward a Theory To Increase Mutual Understanding and Predictability" thread Title .

However based on this small sample of posts, we have a way to go.

FWIW. After more than 40 years in this hobby, I never knew electronics were that important when it comes to the notion of immersion. I would have thought speakers would be the main ingredient in being immersed in sound... ... And I would have thought there are ways , rules to achieve immersion. Once again we seem to be talking past each other with absolutes and unverifiable declarations.

My experience is that you will achieve far greater immersion in the music with "middle class" speakers and top electronics than vice versa. This tells me that it is electronics that are more limiting of realism than speakers. The distortions speakers make are still, more or less, in the realm of sounds we know from nature and that is because resonances of materials, cabinet vibrations etc. are physical materials vibrating...we know this from evolution. Electronic distortions are wholly unnatural and never before experienced by humans until about 90 years ago. This makes them jump out as unnatural and this destroys immersion and suspension of disbelief. It is for the same reason that the room is less important because reflections in a room have been known for 10s of thousands of years, since man started living inside a cave. Our brains know what to expect from room reflections and can tune a lot of this out...unless it is too intense and then you hear this clearly as a drop in intelligibility when speaking in the room. If the room has no issues with speech then it will work ok for hifi.

Obviously, if you have the cash then optimization of both is a good option.

 

[morricab]

It has to be a combo.. room/speakers/electronics and most importantly the mastering of the music
Most of us have carefully crafted systems that overcome a lot of the physical limitations of sound reproduction..so it all boils down to emotion and content and arrangement of the source..
I have never had an immersive experience with lousily recorded music.. an emotional response maybe.. but no eargasms

Clearly the recordings have to be above a certain standard or realism is not possible...no dispute there...

 

[pkane]

Personally, I'm guided by 2 in the design and selection of system components, then by 3 in tweaking and adjusting these components for what sounds best to me. This is further guided by the expectation that a properly recorded live event will sound live when reproduced by a transparent system, i.e., 1

For me, any system that adds coloration to the sound or adds or subtracts from what was recorded is something to fix. I strive for the smallest number of analog components in the signal path and for the simplest digital transformation that does not destroy data and timing in this pursuit. I don't expect (nor want) a system to smooth out problems in the recording, to sweeten the sound, to increase the sound stage, etc., if these were not part of the recording.

I've put together multiple systems based on this principle over the years. If a system that I expect to provide transparent reproduction sounds not so good to me, I then spend the time and money to figure out why. Sometimes it's just a change in the order of components, sometimes it's a different power supply, and sometimes it's an additional or different component.

While 3 is the most important and final consideration for me, 2 is a necessary requirement to achieve it. My pursuit of 3 includes the desire for 1, but only when the recording properly captures a live event.

 

[Robh3606]

The amount of immersion in my system is recording dependent. I can here changes from track to track on the same CD so from my point of view the recording is the most important aspect of this attribute

Rob

 

[microstrip]

Clearly the recordings have to be above a certain standard or realism is not possible...no dispute there...

Yes, but as far as system improves the threshold for this standard moves. Good electronics, much more than the speakers manage to make yourself focus on the musical and performance content, relegating the faults. Please note that I am addressing non amplified music.