The Genesis Dragon

[garylkoh]

Why is that, Gary? Curious.

Loudspeaker design is a careful balancing of compromises. Since both Wilson and Rockport are my competitors, I would not comment on their choices. My statement came from an analysis of my competition, and I came away with the G2Jr with a different balance of compromises. Based just on the design, I would also say that the Arrakis has an even larger sweet spot than the Altair.

 

[microstrip]

(...) And the biggest improvement between the G1.1 and the G1.2 IMHO is not the power, but the improved coherence between the bass and the midrange.

Curiously a few other great speaker designers also refer to this aspect - it is not only bass quality and quantity, but ultimately how it "matches" the speaker. And it seems this can not be expressed in therms of Butterworth / Bessel / Chebyshev, slopes and dB's.

 

[FrantzM]

+1 Thanks Frantz.

With the G1.2, we have gone a step further with better materials and availability of technology. However, I did my best to keep to the legacy sound of Arnie Nudell's IRS V and G1.1. Where there weren't many speakers available to match the bass power of the G1.1, with double the bass capability (not for loudness mind you, but for better quality) in the G1.2 I don't think that there are any that would match the bass power. And the biggest improvement between the G1.1 and the G1.2 IMHO is not the power, but the improved coherence between the bass and the midrange.

Gary

You're welcome and should also be congratulated for reviving the brand. My biggest gripe with the IRS and the previous Genesis was the unequal performance in the sonic landscape. The IRS V and the Gen 1 would be great in the bass no doubt, the dynamics in the upper midrange to treble were also (are) among the best one can hear in a loudspeaker but the mid-bass was always lacking IMO in those early design to such an extent that I preferred the mid-bass reproduction of the Gen 5, 500 etc... From our discussions it seems the gap has closed or been removed ... This would put these speakers in a class of their own.
I will hear have to hear the Dragon. I have to visit family in Thailand. I may have to wait until worawoot system is assembled ... Burmester and Genesis is a combination I have experienced firsthand: The results are stupefying.

 

[FrantzM]

Curiously a few other great speaker designers also refer to this aspect - it is not only bass quality and quantity, but ultimately how it "matches" the speaker. And it seems this can not be expressed in therms of Butterworth / Bessel / Chebyshev, slopes and dB's.

Why not?

 

[LL21]

Loudspeaker design is a careful balancing of compromises. Since both Wilson and Rockport are my competitors, I would not comment on their choices. My statement came from an analysis of my competition, and I came away with the G2Jr with a different balance of compromises. Based just on the design, I would also say that the Arrakis has an even larger sweet spot than the Altair.

Thanks Gary.

 

[garylkoh]

Curiously a few other great speaker designers also refer to this aspect - it is not only bass quality and quantity, but ultimately how it "matches" the speaker. And it seems this can not be expressed in therms of Butterworth / Bessel / Chebyshev, slopes and dB's.

Why not?

Because the classic crossover formulas are 2-dimensional electrical formulas and do not take into account the time-domain effect of different drivers. There are also time-dimension considerations to take when you consider the boundary-layer cymatic effects between the driving transducer and the air load it encounters.

 

[garylkoh]

Gary

You're welcome and should also be congratulated for reviving the brand.

Thanks, Frantz.

My biggest gripe with the IRS and the previous Genesis was the unequal performance in the sonic landscape. The IRS V and the Gen 1 would be great in the bass no doubt, the dynamics in the upper midrange to treble were also (are) among the best one can hear in a loudspeaker but the mid-bass was always lacking IMO in those early design to such an extent that I preferred the mid-bass reproduction of the Gen 5, 500 etc... From our discussions it seems the gap has closed or been removed ... This would put these speakers in a class of their own.

Yes - you have mentioned this before. The problem has always been the crossover between the ribbon and the cone. It's a problem in all the old systems that I fixed starting with the G5.3.

Now, I'm working on a new speaker that an industry colleague told me will be the biggest challenge of my short career as a loudspeaker designer - with a ribbon tweeter, a ribbon midrange and a cone mid-bass. A 4-way loudspeaker like the Infinity Gamma - only without the ribbon mid-bass that blew up regularly. I want it to be reliable as well as coherent.

I will hear have to hear the Dragon. I have to visit family in Thailand. I may have to wait until worawoot system is assembled ... Burmester and Genesis is a combination I have experienced firsthand: The results are stupefying.

The demo we had in New York with all-Burmester and the Genesis 2 Jr was stupefying good.....

 

[worawoot]

What difference in sound between narrow baffle and wide baffle?
When setting in 6.2*10.2*3.6 meters.
Which one is better in your opinion?

 

[GaryProtein]

I have not heard these, but I have been told the difference between the narrow and wide panels is the crossover point between the woofers and midranges. The narrow panels, made for smaller rooms has a higher crossover point than the wide panels.

In a in room 6.2 x 10.2 x 3.6 meters, (19.2 x 31.6 x 11.2 feet) I would think the wide panel version is better.

Let's hear what Gary has to say.

 

[garylkoh]

I have not heard these, but I have been told the difference between the narrow and wide panels is the crossover point between the woofers and midranges. The narrow panels, made for smaller rooms has a higher crossover point than the wide panels.

In a in room 6.2 x 10.2 x 3.6 meters, (19.2 x 31.6 x 11.2 feet) I would think the wide panel version is better.

Let's hear what Gary has to say.

You beat me to it, and you are absolutely right. I'm sure that living with your IRS V's for so many years has given you an in-depth knowledge of how these speakers work.

I would use the narrow-wing Dragons only if you are constrained to 5.3m or less.

 

[worawoot]

Dear Gary..You can recommend any dealer in Asia for listening Genesis 1.2 in good environment.
Or you have a plan to demo 1.2 in any HiFi show within the near future?

 

[garylkoh]

Dear Worawoot, pity you only just got interested because we demo'ed it at the Hong Kong show just a couple of months ago. Best place to go would be Hong Kong. Please send me an email and I will put you in touch with them.

 

[garylkoh]

Here's a great collection of pictures of the Genesis 1.2/Dragon - all in one place by Italian reviewer Massimo Piantini - with history, description too. He did a great job - I didn't plant any of this

http://www.hifitimereview.com/genesis-1-2-loudspeakers-english/

 

[wilson1]

Good info on this Dragon~!

What type of speaker wiring is recommended for wiring this to the amps?

 

[garylkoh]

With the Dragons, I supply the speaker cable from power amp to loudspeaker. The cables are like the speakers - designed to be as transparent as possible. Ugly music will sound ugly, beautiful music will sound beautiful.

http://absolutefidelity.com/philosophy.html

Here's the latest information about the Dragons:

http://genesisloudspeakers.com/downloads/G1.2_Dragon_Fact_Sheet.pdf

 

[wilson1]

Wow, that's a tremendous hidden benefit for one buying speakers of this caliber!
Matched set and never have to worry about spending another $50-100k+ for additional purchases just to make it sounds good, and effectively lowered the "real" pricing !

Kudo to you, Gary!

Let me get back to those lottery tickets, and i'll get back to you soon..

 

[wilson1]

What's the story on these gold screws, Gary?

Pretty pricy..

 

[carolkoh]

24 karat gold plate over brass, Wilson.

*Bling* *Bling*

Pretty aren't they? They hold the front tweeters.

 

[wilson1]

24 karat gold plate over brass, Wilson.

*Bling* *Bling*

Pretty aren't they? They hold the front tweeters.

Absolutely! They are beautiful in my eyes!! :b






Since Gary is busy playing with the Dragons, i'll help him post up some of the meticulous details that went into a pair of Dragons.

"Today, I was matching capacitors in preparation for building the crossovers for the Genesis Dragons.
The problem with capacitors is that you can't buy them closer than 5% in the large film-and-foil caps that we use. So, to get the tolerance down to less than 1% we end up having to measure them individually, sort them out just to get close. Then, we use multiple caps in parallel to get exactly the value we want.
Here are three values that took me most of the day to find. FWIW, I found that mixing caps in left and right channel to get to the capacitance value I wanted made the speaker sound not as good. For example, to get to 3uF, you can't have 1.5uF + 1.5uF in the left channel, and 1uF + 2uF in the right channel. To get to exactly 3uF, I might use a 2.7uF and then add a 0.1uF that is a little high and a 0.2uF that is a little low.
An added benefit of bypassing caps like this is that the paralleled caps also give me lower equivalent series resistance and inductance - resulting in a more "ideal" capacitor.
Also, the gold-plated screws that we use for the tweeters came in...... here's what $3,000 worth of screws look like! (referring to the gold plated screws picture posted above)"

 

[still-one]

Having read Steve's write-up about his recent visit to hear these beautiful speakers, I was just curious what is the MSRP for such a magnificent system.