The Future of Music Listening and Broadcasting

[FrantzM]

Hi
This will not involve DBT and/or the usual food-fights we audiophiles are so fond of.
I was driving this morning and turned on the radio. A nice tune, Cuban definitely, maybe Guajira. Listening to it one could understand why the giants of Jazz regularly took trips to this country in the middle of last century...
Great music, but missed the introduction and needed the title so that I could buy the CD. Stopped the car and fired Shazam (could have been Soundhound) app from my smartphone. A few seconds later, I had the title and the Artist … Nothing special so far. We are jaded and find this spectacular piece of technology mundane.. Later the question: Do I want to listen to this tune on Spotify!? I am (now) used to that too but it started me on a line of thought:
I am a music lover and listen to new music regularly. Spotify, Qobuz and Deutsche Gramophon are my main streaming services and I use them a lot. I also own over 3500 CDs and about 3000 LPs … I buy at least 15~20 CDs a month via Amazon and download well over 500 downloads from HD Tracks or similar from time to time …

I have been pondering on the following:
Do we need to “own” a CD when so much music is available online? Do we need that piece of plastic to signify that we “have “the desired piece of music when with the new streaming services we can listen to these any time we want, need or think of? Virtually anywhere!? Granted those are for the most part mp3 but Qobuz is CD quality and can be had for the paltry sum (in audiophile terms) of 299 Euros a Year! For 24 million titles. A lifetime of music listening and in CD quality to boot. If one exclusive source of music is LP perhaps this discussion is not very relevant to you , just a reminder thought that Digital is much better than many of you have any idea off… Much, much, much better than the 80’s “Perfect sound forever”. As good as analog in fact and often IMHO, …gasp!!… better…
Waiting for your thoughts and experience on commercial streaming music and on the new concepts of music Broadcasting in the 21st century, of dis-owning music of being able to use it but not “owning” it. Same could apply for movie and I am sure many here use Netflix … Let’s concentrate on music though…
Happy Holidays

P.S. I bought the CD

Chocolate In Sexteto
The tune was Montuno Caliente

 

[microstrip]

Hi
This will not involve DBT and/or the usual food-fights we audiophiles are so fond of. (...)

Frantz,

A provocative thought to start a peace thread when I just logged in WBF.
I have been listening to great music (100% CDs) in my audiophile system for the last few days, I will ignore it for now ...

 

[Steve Williams]

Hi
This will not involve DBT and/or the usual food-fights we audiophiles are so fond of.
I was driving this morning and turned on the radio. A nice tune, Cuban definitely, maybe Guajira. Listening to it one could understand why the giants of Jazz regularly took trips to this country in the middle of last century...
Great music, but missed the introduction and needed the title so that I could buy the CD. Stopped the car and fired Shazam (could have been Soundhound) app from my smartphone. A few seconds later, I had the title and the Artist … Nothing special so far. We are jaded and find this spectacular piece of technology mundane.. Later the question: Do I want to listen to this tune on Spotify!? I am (now) used to that too but it started me on a line of thought:
I am a music lover and listen to new music regularly. Spotify, Qobuz and Deutsche Gramophon are my main streaming services and I use them a lot. I also own over 3500 CDs and about 3000 LPs … I buy at least 15~20 CDs a month via Amazon and download well over 500 downloads from HD Tracks or similar from time to time …

I have been pondering on the following:
Do we need to “own” a CD when so much music is available online? Do we need that piece of plastic to signify that we “have “the desired piece of music when with the new streaming services we can listen to these any time we want, need or think of? Virtually anywhere!? Granted those are for the most part mp3 but Qobuz is CD quality and can be had for the paltry sum (in audiophile terms) of 299 Euros a Year! For 24 million titles. A lifetime of music listening and in CD quality to boot. If one exclusive source of music is LP perhaps this discussion is not very relevant to you , just a reminder thought that Digital is much better than many of you have any idea off… Much, much, much better than the 80’s “Perfect sound forever”. As good as analog in fact and often IMHO, …gasp!!… better…
Waiting for your thoughts and experience on commercial streaming music and on the new concepts of music Broadcasting in the 21st century, of dis-owning music of being able to use it but not “owning” it. Same could apply for movie and I am sure many here use Netflix … Let’s concentrate on music though…
Happy Holidays

P.S. I bought the CD

Chocolate In Sexteto
The tune was Montuno Caliente

I'm of the same ilk Frantz as I stream music much of every day although I sometimes prefer Pandora because I find it easier to navigate although Spotify has better sound

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Having recently been "forced" to listen to digital only (sold TT...new one coming in 2015) I have a better appreciation now of what I thought digital was never capable of given me, and that is extensive listening without fatigue. On well-recorded and well-mastered digital media (in my case physical CD & SACD) I find myself as involved with the music as when spinning vinyl. I still prefer the sound characteristics of vinyl over digital, so I'm not a convert, but I do have a much better or greater appreciation of it.

With regard to streaming I have to say I am not interested enough to make that a part of my music listening experience. I see the value of it insofar as being able to discover new music/artists, but I get that from discussions with friends and other fora. At least enough of it to satisfy my needs.

So for the moment I'll be staying with physical media.

 

[Joe Whip]

Personally, I believe that physical media is on the way out. Sure there will still be new vinyl pressings given what audiophiles are willing to pay for them and CDs and even the odd SACD. I thought this well before the announcement of MQA. However, if MQA is what some people claim it is ( and I have not heard it but I am skeptical) it will surely hasten the demise of physical media. Think about it for a moment. If you were able for a small monthly free to stream master quality audio to your 2 channel system, tablet, HT system or phone at anytime and anywhere, why would you want physical media? I have about 500 LPs and 1000 CDs and now quite a few high res downloads and if I can get master quality as claimed by Meridian, THAT is the way I am going.

 

[FrantzM]

Frantz,

A provocative thought to start a peace thread when I just logged in WBF.
I have been listening to great music (100% CDs) in my audiophile system for the last few days, I will ignore it for now ...

It was a joke microstrip ..Lighten up .

I really would appreciate your thoughts on the matter. I still buy CD but am wondering really why? What's the point ?

 

[marty]

I have been pondering on the following: Do we need to “own” a CD when so much music is available online?

Franz, You have captured the very deliberations I am exploring myself. Our CD and LP numbers are closely equal, at least that was before a massive LP dump to Princeton Records recently, which still leaves me about 1500 LPs. So your primary question is very relevant to where I'm at myself. Some thoughts, in no particular order:

1) Subtitle of this thought: Its all about the music, stupid.
I can only shake my head in dismay with those who say they could never derive enjoyment from digital streaming and feel they can only enjoy music with the CD or LP as source. Frankly I think that's not just the perspective of a purist, but honestly, a snob. When all we had was AM radio in our cars years ago, did we find that limited our enjoyment of the music? C'mon, let's get real. Whether the early rock I played was through a pair of Dynaco A-75 speakers with an AR integrated amp and AR turntable decades ago, or now through my big rig, emotional connection with the music was never about playback quality- it was always about the music itself. I am thrilled Johnny Vinyl has come around from the "dark side" and now can appreciate that streaming music can indeed be very enjoyable. Again, the principle here is that its not as much about reproduction quality as it about the music itself. The "purists" may just find that if they lighten up, enjoyment is abundant on the streaming front with a modest investment (good D/A) to their already very good systems (assuming they do not have a D/A already)

2) Economics.
I am about to embark on listening to the recommendations on WBF for the best Jazz albums of 2014. Why would I want to buy all 20 or so CDs, when the odds that I will return to each and every one of them over and over may be low? I love getting exposed to new music and new artists, but streaming has freed me from feeling compelled to own each CD I want to hear. Hey, guess what? If I want to hear a particular CD selection again or just over and over, all I need to is stream it! What a concept. The world's music at your fingertips for a pittance of a monthly fee. Do I ever buy CDs? Sure, but now there really has to be an exceptional reason, which is generally sonic quality where I think the luxury of ownership outweighs the replay streaming option if sonic spectaculars are my primary objective.

3) Let someone else figure out what I want to hear.
For me, this is one of the strongest reasons to embrace streaming. Pandora has an exceptional algorithm for figuring out the "DNA" of a particular piece of music. I listen to a lot of Indian Classical and World music. I can never be fully informed about the choices and selections out there that are available to me. But when I pick a piece of music to model a radio station on using Pandora or Spotify, I am treated to an endless list of new music I would otherwise never hear. And if I don't like a particular selection? Push the "next" button. Its that simple. In the case of world music, I love it when Pandora or some other program figures it out for me. But the other example of when I want someone else to figure out the programming is when I want to stay in a given mood such as with trance music, or New Age. I might just select Patrick O'Hearn and sit back for 2 hours in the wee hours of the morning to let some of the most imaginative, relaxing sounds and rhythms I would otherwise never know, wash over me like warm mater. By letting Pandora or Spotify do my programming, I never have to worry about buying every CD from every artist that is chosen for me to listen to. However, if I really like something I can of course select it for re-play or purchase anytime. Again, if you think that listening to a somewhat compressed format bothers me to the point of not being able to enjoy the musical experience, well then we suspect we'll just have to agree to disagree. If creating a music scape and music for mood is the objective, then at least for me, it works quite well especially when "take me away" is the objective.

4) Music quality high points change with time.
Yes, there was a time I would buy every Direct to disk, every Sheffield and other audiophile LPs thought to define SOA sonics in the past. But c'mon folks, how many more times do you really think you're going to listen to Thelma Houston? Bottom line, there is simply too much new music that defines SOA than my ability to keep shelf space for a library of the music that defined SOA 30+ years ago. Sure, there is some stuff I will never part with, but thanks to the ability of streaming to open countless opportunities for me, I can allow my permanent library to shrink and feel as though I'm not missing anything.

5) Musical education
I'm a Mahler freak, and recently, I thought I'd take hard listen to how some of his symphonies are rendered by different conductors. It doesn't take a genius to do the math to figure out how much it would cost if one wanted to accumulate 3 or more versions of each of his symphonies on CD. However, by using streaming, I can flip entire symphonies or even individual movements by various conductors at the push of a button. And its all covered in the monthly fee. Now that's just a deal, plain and simple. Bernstein vs von Karajan vs Rattle on Mahler's 9th? You decide. But I'll tell you, its nice to be able to do this without spending hundred so dollars to own every version out there.

I'll conclude just be mentioning that whatever you think of streaming quality, keep in mind that it is only going to get better and better. I used to consider myself a "purist", whatever the hell that meant. I hope that now, my aspiration is just to be considered a music lover. And let's always remember that almost any form that is not live music has a list of relative sonic benefits and liabilities. All of this is to say that now, the format that music comes to me is just considerably less important than the music itself.

Streaming is here to stay. Embrace it. It can enrich your life in very meaningful ways.
Marty

 

[FrantzM]

Tangential to this is the fact that there are many pieces from my music collection that I have bought, ripped, liked and forgotten not to say much abut those I have not liked at first play and never, ever played-over. We pride ourselves on the ownership of a large collection of music in reality we listen to a very small percentage of it. Likely less than 40%
And I am with Marty on this. However much mp3 is reviled and maligned mp3 VBR and/or 320 Kb/s are very easy on the ear provided the mastering was up to snuff. Additionally and this is an odd observation Western Classical Music seems to fare the best with mp3. It is hard unless the recording is intimately known to distinguish 320Kb mp3 from CD even on headphones. One has to concentrate on parts of the piece to recognize the mp3 signature. of course once this is done, it becomes easy to recognize that part as mp3 or CD... but simply listening to music, even seriously?320 kb/s mp3 sails though very well IMO on Classical much more so than Jazz or small vocal pieces IMO, Rock is another cup of tea, As Marty mentions it, i was enjoying it on AM radio so whatever has the full range covered seems OK for a while until i hear better... Others' Mileage May Vary..the new acronym OMMV

 

[Steve Williams]

We stream music all day throughout the house. I also stream music in my room through my system and agree about the MP3. However for a means to find music and play what you want when you want is indeed very appealing.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Having recently been "forced" to listen to digital only (sold TT...new one coming in 2015) I have a better appreciation now of what I thought digital was never capable of given me, and that is extensive listening without fatigue. On well-recorded and well-mastered digital media (in my case physical CD & SACD) I find myself as involved with the music as when spinning vinyl. I still prefer the sound characteristics of vinyl over digital, so I'm not a convert, but I do have a much better or greater appreciation of it.

With regard to streaming I have to say I am not interested enough to make that a part of my music listening experience. I see the value of it insofar as being able to discover new music/artists, but I get that from discussions with friends and other fora. At least enough of it to satisfy my needs.

So for the moment I'll be staying with physical media.

I need to add to this the fact that I only listen to music on my system and that of my PC setup. I do not listen to music in my car, my phone or any other type of portable player. I love music, but I don't feel the need to have it surround me for all hours of the day. If I did, then I'd probably partake in streaming.

 

[FrantzM]

Johnny

I would say that is the wrong way to look at "Streaming". I apologize if I misunderstood you but in this context, "streaming" should nto be seen as continuously playing music but rather the process by which it reaches you.
Think of it this way: You have your TT and decides on a Beattles night. You pick 4 albums (your playlist) and starts spinning them one after the other. In an order you choose. With Pandora, Qobuz , Spotify and the likes. You do the same: You pick up the albums and build your playlist. Then you sit down at your convenience and listen to them , when you want.. What "streaming" and those new sercies bring to you is the following: They may suggest to you some other artists similar to the Beattles and you can, when you want listen to them ... It is your player, you listen you way at your own time and leisure .. you are not forced to listen all the time ... The ting you can listen to so much artists it is nto humanly feasible for any person to have such a large collection .. Qobuz for one has 24 Million titles.. I have not yet been able to not find a cut from Spotify even obscure and forgotten groups from my country Haiti... There has to be some they don't have .. I amnot saying they have everything and the Music Education part is uncanny. You discover so much more music with those services. Give it a try some of these are free so that you can have an idea. Qobuz has a month free. Spotify and Pandora have a Premium feature and that is what you want but to get your feet wet .. just try Spotify free and you'll get what the "Streaming" is all about ...

 

[Peter Breuninger]

I'm going to set Tidal up after CES, why would anyone use Pandora or Spotify when you can get redbook on Tidal?

 

[Steve Williams]

Now that's news Peter.

From tidalhifi.com

Enjoy your music the way the artists intended. Unlimited access to over 25 million tracks in FLAC on all platforms apart from iOS, where ALAC (Apple Lossless) is used, and available to stream in 44.1 kHz / 16 bit (1411kbps).

 

[FrantzM]

I'm going to set Tidal up after CES, why would anyone use Pandora or Spotify when you can get redbook on Tidal?

Didn't know they had a streaming service. Will their library be as expansive as Qobuz? So far Spotify will find almost anything that I have thrown at it. You may have noticed in thisthread the efficacy of Pandora algorithm in suggesting new music . Will Tidal be to that level?
Have you browse the immensity of Deutsche Gramophone Library and that of Harmonia Mundi this last one available in its integral form available on Qobuz .. Will Tidal offer the same? Could be interesting if they did it in Redbook.

The point is more about these services and that would include Tidal, as compared to our reflex to acquire...


P.S. Just read Steve's post .. That is one more interesting service... Acquiring a CD or even a download may be a thing of the past ... Rather loan it long term on one of those cloud services

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Johnny

I would say that is the wrong way to look at "Streaming". I apologize if I misunderstood you but in this context, "streaming" should nto be seen as continuously playing music but rather the process by which it reaches you.
Think of it this way: You have your TT and decides on a Beattles night. You pick 4 albums (your playlist) and starts spinning them one after the other. In an order you choose. With Pandora, Qobuz , Spotify and the likes. You do the same: You pick up the albums and build your playlist. Then you sit down at your convenience and listen to them , when you want.. What "streaming" and those new sercies bring to you is the following: They may suggest to you some other artists similar to the Beattles and you can, when you want listen to them ... It is your player, you listen you way at your own time and leisure .. you are not forced to listen all the time ... The ting you can listen to so much artists it is nto humanly feasible for any person to have such a large collection .. Qobuz for one has 24 Million titles.. I have not yet been able to not find a cut from Spotify even obscure and forgotten groups from my country Haiti... There has to be some they don't have .. I amnot saying they have everything and the Music Education part is uncanny. You discover so much more music with those services. Give it a try some of these are free so that you can have an idea. Qobuz has a month free. Spotify and Pandora have a Premium feature and that is what you want but to get your feet wet .. just try Spotify free and you'll get what the "Streaming" is all about ...

Hi Frantz!

No need to apologize as you are correct. I only pointed out one aspect of it as that's how I view most streaming to take place. I appreciate and can clearly see the benefits that streaming can bring to a listening session for many people. That "people" isn't me. When I cue up for a session on LP I am devoted to listening to the music in that format. I could, but I have no interest in playing with a tablet to see what a streaming service might suggest for the album I have cued up. Even if I were to play CD/SACD I wouldn't.

Music listening is still very much an activity for me. I feel a connection with the physical product as much as I do the music. I understand that for many it isn't, which is fine, but I don't really want to change. It makes me happy.

 

[Peter Breuninger]

Hi Frantz!

No need to apologize as you are correct. I only pointed out one aspect of it as that's how I view most streaming to take place. I appreciate and can clearly see the benefits that streaming can bring to a listening session for many people. That "people" isn't me. When I cue up for a session on LP I am devoted to listening to the music in that format. I could, but I have no interest in playing with a tablet to see what a streaming service might suggest for the album I have cued up. Even if I were to play CD/SACD I wouldn't.

Music listening is still very much an activity for me. I feel a connection with the physical product as much as I do the music. I understand that for many it isn't, which is fine, but I don't really want to change. It makes me happy.

I agree Frantz, playing a record or reel to reel tape gives me a direct connection to the media. I love pulling a record out of the sleeve, placing it on the table, putting the clamp on, starting the table (especially the Kronos) and then dropping the needle.

The Kronos Ltd. Edition has been in the system for two months and I've only played six digital files (but about 100 or more records).

 

[FrantzM]

Different strokes and all that .. I feel absolutely no connection to any media. i am in for the Music .. but I do understand your points.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I agree Frantz, playing a record or reel to reel tape gives me a direct connection to the media. I love pulling a record out of the sleeve, placing it on the table, putting the clamp on, starting the table (especially the Kronos) and then dropping the needle.

The Kronos Ltd. Edition has been in the system for two months and I've only played six digital files (but about 100 or more records).

I think it me who you are in agreement with!

Different strokes and all that .. I feel absolutely no connection to any media. i am in for the Music .. but I do understand your points.

We all have different ways of looking at things. No right or wrong....just preference.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

to me there is no right way to access music. there is only accessing it.

since I already have the 4000+ silver digital discs (CD and SACD), the 6+ terabytes (and growing daily) of hi rez (mostly dsd and 2xdsd, also lots of hi rez PCM) on the server, 8000 (and growing) Lps, and 200 or so master tapes.......I have yet to investigate, let alone listen to, any streaming service or app to I.D. a music file.

streaming music is the answer to a question i'm not asking.

i'm neither defending my perspective, nor negative on those who enjoy streaming. it simply does not fit my situation at the moment. I seem to have all my musical itches already scratched, and due the fact that the performance quality of what i'm doing now is not likely to be matched by any streaming service it's unlikely that I will change.

in the car i'm listening to sports radio, so mobile music listening is simply not significant to me. my occasional car trips with the wife do involve Sirrus/XM satellite radio, but even then it's mostly FOX News for her and a little music.

OTOH if were to start from zero right now streaming music would be the place I would go or recommend others to go.

 

[microstrip]

Listening to music is one of my real pleasures, but takes only a limited part of my time. In our house or when working I stream silence ...

For me a few pleasures benefit from some rituals to enhance them - it is why I prefer reading paper books well seated in a nice place or garden, or listening to physical media. Connection with the music starts in the moment I buy or order it. The waiting time is part of the ritual - sometimes buying it a few thousand kilometers away, arriving home and only much later discovering if the expectation is fulfilled.

I feel that the connection is not with the media as some people could think. The connection is with my mind and feelings, the media is only a catalyst to accelerate the reaction. And I will not hide that I feel that after the long time and hard work it has taken to assemble my system () some of my pleasure listening to music is enhanced by my connection with the system.

Surely, reading a a lot about psychoacoustics, the limitations of stereo and the famous tree in the forest further cements my feelings on these media matters. For me it is more than just the music. And I am happy it is so.