The Audio System and High-End Philosophy of Mike Lavigne

[XV-1]

Great write up there Ron. I remember when Mike had Mark Levinson amps and just bought his Karma speakers - start of the slippery slope

Mike - enjoy the great system and more importantly the music!!

 

[microstrip]

(...) when I have visitors the mean SPL's are a bit higher I think.... (...)

Your preamplifier has a dB scale, you should be able to know it with confidence ...

BTW, can I ask what was the recording of "complex jazz music" you listened with Ron?

 

[analyzer]

A superlative and absolutely detailed report, thank you very much to all, Ron in first place.
Me and possibly Gian60 (I call him this morning) we would plan a flight from northern Italy to Oregon in the next two years, knocking at the Mike's door ...
cheers
Marco

 

[bonzo75]

A superlative and absolutely detailed report, thank you very much to all, Ron in first place.
Me and possibly Gian60 (I call him this morning) we would plan a flight from northern Italy to Oregon in the next two years, knocking at the Mike's door ...
cheers
Marco

Nice.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

A superlative and absolutely detailed report, thank you very much to all, Ron in first place.
Me and possibly Gian60 (I call him this morning) we would plan a flight from northern Italy to Oregon in the next two years, knocking at the Mike's door ...
cheers
Marco

i'll be waiting to invite you both in.....anytime.

cheers,

Mike

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Your preamplifier has a dB scale, you should be able to know it with confidence ...

BTW, can I ask what was the recording of "complex jazz music" you listened with Ron?

i'm not 100% sure, but it could have been Ellington's Malletoba Spank, Classic Records 4 disc 45rpm pressing.. and this is really more 'big band' than small combo jazz.

when Ron made that comment during our listening session, i recall that i had not heard the 'confusion' that he thought he heard. there are lots of different things going on in 'spank', and he was likely in the sweet spot and I was not and I was likely in the DJ spot to the left side of the sofa. so no doubt he would hear nuance differences that would be less obvious to me.

 

[Stereophonic]

Robert,

my Tripoint boxes are not for sale. they are keepers.

I assure you I talked about my Tripoint and Entreq grounding with Ron to the degree that he had an interest. and I made it clear that it made considerable differences. Ron wrote about what was important to him to write about.

a system and room like mine has many layers of detail about what is going on. it would take a long book to really delve into all the detail. there are dozens of threads here on WBF that get into lots of those details. Ron focused on what was important to him. and I'm very happy with the job he did. but it won't necessarily cover all the stuff that fits everyone's priorities.

Mike, it is hard to believe that you didn't connect the Tripoints with descriptions like these (your own words):

-"Nothing has quite done what the Elite has done in my system, the sense of any reproduction artifacts recede and musical magic takes over."

-"Even in my room which is absolutely purpose built and ultra tweaked for optimal acoustics already, all the moves lately with Tripoint products (added Thor SE, moving Troy Sig to amps, added Elite, and grounding main towers) have certainly yielded clear solid steps forward with sound staging. and that last step of grounding my passive towers was no different. overall the effect is of an added dimensionality to the sound, along with more complete decays, micro dynamic energy, and textures which transcend the physical boundaries of my room."

With all my respect, Ron is a "Mono and Stereo - Senior Contributing Reviewer", business interests are evident.
Maybe Matej is not happy with Tripoint....

There is nothing bad on this, but please, do not treat like this a brand that has revolutionized the audio world with that affimation: "Mike has deployed an elaborate array of Tripoint and Entreq grounding products, which I do not understand and which we did not discuss." following with "Mike is intellectually honest when he stipulates that he does not know how or why things sound as they do. He is not a scientist or an electronics engineer, and he does not pretend to be".

So, what had you to discuss?

Truth only has one way....

King regards.

 

[Tango]

It’s not easy to be....

 

[dminches]

I am not following you. Have you ever heard a great system in a very poor room sound great...if so, can you imagine how much better that very same system is going to sound in a great room. IME, the room is pretty much everything. Many years ago, my a’phile group did a demo with a pair of Harbeth 40.1’s in a terrible room. Hard reflections everywhere, tons of glass, a very unpleasant reverb in the ceiling and so forth. The system did not sound good at all....so much so, that a few of the attendees thought that maybe the speakers were at fault. That is until they heard the very same speaker in a far superior room, even though this room room was untreated acoustically.
I guess YMMV.

Spot on. A poor room is a limiting factor regardless of the quality of the equipment. My guess is that Mike's room lets his equipment give him all it has.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, it is hard to believe that you didn't connect the Tripoints with descriptions like these (your own words):

-"Nothing has quite done what the Elite has done in my system, the sense of any reproduction artifacts recede and musical magic takes over."

-"Even in my room which is absolutely purpose built and ultra tweaked for optimal acoustics already, all the moves lately with Tripoint products (added Thor SE, moving Troy Sig to amps, added Elite, and grounding main towers) have certainly yielded clear solid steps forward with sound staging. and that last step of grounding my passive towers was no different. overall the effect is of an added dimensionality to the sound, along with more complete decays, micro dynamic energy, and textures which transcend the physical boundaries of my room."

With all my respect, Ron is a "Mono and Stereo - Senior Contributing Reviewer", business interests are evident.
Maybe Matej is not happy with Tripoint....

sorry, but with all due respect you have this very wrong and I would ask that you delete it. there is no part of Ron that has these type ideas. Ron has his interests and at this point in time grounding is not one of them. it's perfectly ok to be surprised or even offended by that, but to try and connect the dots to some sort of 'dark-sinister' product avoidance based on his review status is offensive to me. this is not like an Absolute Sound show report where they only mention products being advertised in their magazine. I do realize that in the real world that stuff happens. but not with Ron.

There is nothing bad on this, but please, do not treat like this a brand that has revolutionized the audio world with that affimation: "Mike has deployed an elaborate array of Tripoint and Entreq grounding products, which I do not understand and which we did not discuss." following with "Mike is intellectually honest when he stipulates that he does not know how or why things sound as they do. He is not a scientist or an electronics engineer, and he does not pretend to be".

So, what had you to discuss?

Truth only has one way....

King regards.

it's Ron's article, and he focuses on the things important to him. maybe there will be a time when grounding will matter to him. but I could only discuss these things to the degree I was comfortable with and respected Ron's agenda.

 

[bonzo75]

Mods should delete this. This is the equivalent of lying and causing false news spread purposefully. There are people who disagreed with his lack of focus on grounding and digital and that's fine but this is one of the silliest posts I have seen in a long time

 

[microstrip]

i'm not 100% sure, but it could have been Ellington's Malletoba Spank, Classic Records 4 disc 45rpm pressing.. and this is really more 'big band' than small combo jazz.

when Ron made that comment during our listening session, i recall that i had not heard the 'confusion' that he thought he heard. there are lots of different things going on in 'spank', and he was likely in the sweet spot and I was not and I was likely in the DJ spot to the left side of the sofa. so no doubt he would hear nuance differences that would be less obvious to me.

Thanks - if Ron considers "Malletoba Spank" complex music, I can imagine his reaction to some of my Black Saint LP's ...

Just saying it once more - IMHO if writers do not refer to the specific recording they listened readers can get an erroneous and misleading view about what was perceived.

 

[microstrip]

I am not following you. Have you ever heard a great system in a very poor room sound great...if so, can you imagine how much better that very same system is going to sound in a great room. IME, the room is pretty much everything. Many years ago, my a’phile group did a demo with a pair of Harbeth 40.1’s in a terrible room. Hard reflections everywhere, tons of glass, a very unpleasant reverb in the ceiling and so forth. The system did not sound good at all....so much so, that a few of the attendees thought that maybe the speakers were at fault. That is until they heard the very same speaker in a far superior room, even though this room room was untreated acoustically.
I guess YMMV.

Although being able to sound great, the Harbeth 40.1’s is know for its very poor off of axis measurements. Just imagining, but most possibly another type of speaker could sound decent in this room.

Some time ago I listened to a Wilson Audio Sabrina sounding miserable with a god solid state amplifier + CD player system in a "difficult" room - it was the official excuse for the failure. Then some one connected an Audio Research GS 75i tube integrated + CD9 system and the sound become great, filling the whole room with music. A real pleasure to listen. No one else complained about the room any more.

F. Toole reported some statistics on reverberation time in existing living rooms. Although a few had poor measurements, most of them - I do not have the book with me, I can report on exact numbers - had good measurements.

And although most agree on the importance of the listening room, most will disagree on what is a good listening room. It seems there is even fundamental disagreement in WBF between basic things, such as plywood or drywall ...

 

[DaveyF]

Although being able to sound great, the Harbeth 40.1’s is know for its very poor off of axis measurements. Just imagining, but most possibly another type of speaker could sound decent in this room.

Some time ago I listened to a Wilson Audio Sabrina sounding miserable with a god solid state amplifier + CD player system in a "difficult" room - it was the official excuse for the failure. Then some one connected an Audio Research GS 75i tube integrated + CD9 system and the sound become great, filling the whole room with music. A real pleasure to listen. No one else complained about the room any more.

F. Toole reported some statistics on reverberation time in existing living rooms. Although a few had poor measurements, most of them - I do not have the book with me, I can report on exact numbers - had good measurements.

And although most agree on the importance of the listening room, most will disagree on what is a good listening room. It seems there is even fundamental disagreement in WBF between basic things, such as plywood or drywall ...

Micro, I understand that you are skeptical about everything that is posted here. ( Although I do NOT understand why??) Let me tell you with absolute certainty, the room in my example...sucked. No ifs ands or buts!!!! You were not there, so you have no idea. The room was chosen by my a'phile group precisely because it was so poor acoustically. There are no dissenters on the sound of the room and the system...none. We are talking of a group of over fifty a'philes. Could they ALL be wrong and your assumption be correct, LOL.
The Harbeth 40.1's are an excellent speaker, ( have you actually ever heard a pair??). On the Harbeth 40.2 thread that has just started ( http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?25222-Harbeth-Monitor-40-2), you will see that CGabriel praises the 40.2's as such. Believe me, the 40.1's are very good as well.
Nonetheless, please do continue to question everything that is posted here, it is very amusing to me.

 

[Priaptor]

Spectacular write up and more spectacular Mike's room/system.

Congrats to both.

 

[Pb Blimp]

F. Toole reported some statistics on reverberation time in existing living rooms. Although a few had poor measurements, most of them - I do not have the book with me, I can report on exact numbers - had good measurements.

And although most agree on the importance of the listening room, most will disagree on what is a good listening room. It seems there is even fundamental disagreement in WBF between basic things, such as plywood or drywall ...

Having gone from an "existing living room" to a room designed and built form the ground up by a capable Acoustician using established modelling technique, I have to agree with Davey. When you work in this manner I also don't think "most will disagree on what is a good listening room." The science is, IMO, more established than much of what goes on in this hobby. Defining a great room comes down to the numbers -- a flat response, proper decay and liveliness can all be achieved through optimized feature design, material selection and location. The improvements IMO to listening enjoyment are staggering.

 

[Rodney Gold]

I too can vouch for the room being everything no matter the system..its the lens that you are listening to the music through
I take it a step further in that I use DSP based room correction(Trinnov) atop an already well treated and dedicated room..the effects of both are astounding..but the room and treatment is by far the best bang for the buck
I had a few audio consultants round and they were all over the place with recommendations so I decided to research and do it myself..

 

[cjfrbw]

I had a few audio consultants round and they were all over the place with recommendations so I decided to research and do it myself..

You mean there was no acknowledged consensus? I'm shocked, shocked, I say!

 

[microstrip]

Having gone from an "existing living room" to a room designed and built form the ground up by a capable Acoustician using established modelling technique, I have to agree with Davey. When you work in this manner I also don't think "most will disagree on what is a good listening room." The science is, IMO, more established than much of what goes on in this hobby. Defining a great room comes down to the numbers -- a flat response, proper decay and liveliness can all be achieved through optimized feature design, material selection and location. The improvements IMO to listening enjoyment are staggering.

Happy to know you were successful. But unfortunately it is not, the science of small listening rooms, as acousticians refer to our typical room size is scarce. It is mostly an art, relying on the knowledge and experience of the acoustician, as well in his preferences. Google a little about successes and failures and you will see my point. If you have doubts and want science, please read Floyd Toole about the subject in his excellent book.

Remember that the high-end is a subjective hobby. One man's meat is another man's poison, you have to choose your supplier ...

Anyway I would be very happy to know about your "numbers" to audio nirvana.

 

[microstrip]

(...) I had a few audio consultants round and they were all over the place with recommendations so I decided to research and do it myself..

Many audio consultants come from a professional audio background, their perspective is different from high-end consumers. I did the same as you. Although I do not have a certified room I am happy with my acoustic treatments.