The Art of Listening - Before and After

[Johnny Vinyl]

How very interesting! I listened to both on my laptop with a pair of Shure SRH840's, so this may not be a good evaluation, but here are my thoughts:

On the first piece I thought her voice peaked a bit, which gave it a slight "shrill". The piano came across wonderfully.
On the second cut I thought her voice came across more clearly, yet there seemed to be an imbalance between her and the other instruments.

Thanks Bruce! I enjoyed that!

 

[Bruce B]

Here is where it gets sticky. What I like to hear, and what the producer/artist wants. An audiophile/musician will pull their hair out trying to convince the label that this is what sounds good. The label wants it to stand out and make it LOUDER!!
I made 2 more attempts to satisfy the label/producer but they still didn't like it. They wanted more punch. I asked them what were their reference tracks and they said Celine Dion. I thought to myself... they want me to turn everything up to ELEVEN!! When I gave them them final cuts, they were elated! So... here are the 2 processed files they declined...

Processed 2 and 3


And the final they approved.

Final

We told them to leave our name off of the credits. This was one we are not proud of.

 

[Bruce B]

Allmusic.com credit

Name Credits
Adolphe Adam - Composer
Brin Addison - Mixing, Recording
Bruce Brown - Mastering
Giulio Caccini - Composer
Gora Diop - African Drums
Thione Diop - African Drums
Claudio Donoso - Percussion
Paul Geluso - Mixing, Recording
Gisella - Vocals
Charles Gounod - Composer
Franz Gruber - Composer
Brendan Kellogg - Cello
Hector Osaki - Guitar
Franz Schubert - Composer
Povilas Stranvinsky - Piano
Juliet Stratton - Harp
Christmas Traditional Composer
Jason Williams - Guitar

 

[garylkoh]

Thanks, Bruce. Greatly appreciated. I remember you telling this story at one of our club meetings. Now we can actually hear what you meant.

 

[Scott Borduin]

This was fascinating, Bruce, and thanks for doing it. The difference between original and final is incredible - the final version sounds almost as though performed by aliens in comparison. This kind of thing puts other factors in perspective: it won't matter much whether this recording is released/downloaded in 128 MP3 or 24/192, compared to what it could have been with a different decision by the producer. I for one would encourage more of these experiments; they give us insight into the other, probably more important, aspects of fidelity.

 

[mep]

This all gets back to the sorry state of recording today. People like Bruce are forced to give up dynamic range in order to keep the VU meter pegged at 0 so it will be LOUD. The ironic thing about digital and its highly touted dynamic range is that many of today's recordings don't use any of it. They make an old Ampex 350 tape deck look like a dynamic range monster by comparison. Tis a shame.

 

[rbbert]

Do you have any particular amount (dB wise) of maximum boost (shelf) or cut (peak) when using EQ?

 

[Bruce B]

Do you have any particular amount (dB wise) of maximum boost (shelf) or cut (peak) when using EQ?

I never go over 2.5 - 3.0dB with any EQ adjustment. You run into too many issues when you go over that. IF, I had to use more than 3.0dB on any track, I'd use 2-3 EQ's in a chain. I'd use 1 EQ at 1 or 2dB with a wide Q and another EQ at 2-3dB with a narrow Q.

I do this with compression also. If a band wants something really loud, instead of using 1 compressor at a 6:1 ratio, I may use 2 or 3 compressors at 1.5 or 2:1

 

[Bruce B]

Next up, I have a local jazz quintet. The band is actually quite good, but the recording leaves a lot to be desired. The mix engineer was just learning Pro Tools and he tried to "pseudo" master the tracks himself. The files were delivered in 16/44.1

Take a listen!

Jazz Quintet Original Files

 

[rbbert]

I never go over 2.5 - 3.0dB with any EQ adjustment. You run into too many issues when you go over that. IF, I had to use more than 3.0dB on any track, I'd use 2-3 EQ's in a chain. I'd use 1 EQ at 1 or 2dB with a wide Q and another EQ at 2-3dB with a narrow Q.

I do this with compression also. If a band wants something really loud, instead of using 1 compressor at a 6:1 ratio, I may use 2 or 3 compressors at 1.5 or 2:1

Thanks!

 

[Bruce B]

No comments on the Jazz Quintet files?

 

[microstrip]

No comments on the Jazz Quintet files?

I listened to them using an EMU tracker DAC.
Track 1 is so bass heavy that it will induce headache in my system after two minutes.
Track 2 seems better balanced, but there is something "phasey"on the sound - it seems they are not even "good enough"!

 

[NorthStar]

I cannot access any links from Bruce!

Do I need an Apache indian program? ...I do have Windows media player, but it ain't showing!
Do I need to wait a certain amount of time?

Bob

EDIT: OK I got it; I just decided to wait longer, and it took about two minutes or so.
{I will have to be patient, and connect a pair of headpones to my PC in order to make a fair assessment.}

And as a musician myself (non-pro), and having done quite a few recordings in the past with various mic positioning and using one or two or more; I am quite interested by this thread!
It is truly an ART to record well an artist musician or a singer or a full Orchestra... Anything that moves the soul from an ear's (or two) perspective.

 

[Bruce B]

After initially speaking with the artist and explaining to him what I needed to do, he accepted the outcome.

What we had to do was lower the gain about 3dB to see if we could add more life back into the mix. We also took out the boominess with an EQ cut of 2dB cut at 84Hz and another cut at 125Hz

Processed files

 

[Bruce B]

After he listened to the files for a while... what do you know... he wanted them louder!

We got them as loud as he wanted. Here you can definitely hear the compressor "pumping".
He liked the files and the disc will be out soon. Another one we're not proud of.

Final files

 

[noricd]

Bruce - Heartfelt thanks for these before and after recordings you've generously shared; and also for the other Art of Listening thread posts by you. Your post links are superb case studies guided by your commentary. I'll share them with my 8 year old piano playing son and friends as perfect references for the art of listening.

I've been educating myself as I rediscover music and in particular hifi equipment. This week I've downloaded the Pure Music software to trail in my system, to get over the iTunes issue in sending to a DAC at 16/44. Now my DAC's panel tells me I'm hearing 24/96, my ears do too. Your post commentary and links underline many of sound quality features I'm noticing as good experiences, eg more "space" between instruments and better attack and decay in bass and drums and other instruments.

In some of your sample before and after recordings, the apparent desire of those directing your studio to make the vocalist or the sax or other lead instrument at any time drive the track. When they drive it seems melody takes over, falling behind seem to be such musical features as harmony and subtle interplay between silence and sound or between instruments. The later I guess require people to listen. The former to be the recipient of sound.

The compressed and loud (if that's correct shorthand) recordings recall what I call "anthem" songs. We're all familiar with them, they are the 3 minute jingles over the decades which start with X seconds of suggestion and then follow for at least 2 minutes of repeat anthem lines and hooks.

 

[Bruce B]

Thanks Noric... I'm glad you can take something from this and apply it to your listening habits. Let me know if you would want something else placed on here for before/after.

 

[cjfrbw]

I sort of lost track of this thread, but agree it is fascinating. It's odd how clients will (through bad taste and limited sonic aspirations) trash what fidelity is actually on the recordings.

 

[aln]

Many Thanks

Perhaps if more people are exposed to the before and after, they will make better decisions!

 

[LenWhite]

After he listened to the files for a while... what do you know... he wanted them louder!

We got them as loud as he wanted. Here you can definitely hear the compressor "pumping".
He liked the files and the disc will be out soon. Another one we're not proud of.

Final files

Can't believe he actually wanted his music louder I'm not even interested in listening to the final masterings after listening to the previous generation - they were too loud-compressed!!

I had read an article about this artist/producer obsession with loudness before, and your confirming it's a serious problem. Apparently there are so many artists trying to make it in the business, they have to have their music maxed out like commercials in a an attempt to be heard over the din.

What's really shocking is the music genre (jazz) Most pop/rock is loud and compressed because listeners care more about portability and price than sound quality, but I would have thought jazz buffs would be more concerned with sound quality. It's getting very difficult to have any confidence the music you're purchasing contains quality sound.