But I would hazard a guess, Steve, that if you turn up, or turn down the volume on your system by reasonable amounts that it makes almost no difference to the subjective impression of the playback. Am I correct?
Frank
The Absolute Sound (magazine) take on many aspects of computer assisted music reprodu
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Frank
Frantz-via an entire digital system I used to own playing over a pair of ML Aerius speakers, I have heard high frequencies pressurize my room. This came from a CD of a Beatles tribute and the cut was “We Can Work it Out.”
Micro
Not perhaps ... and you know it... Certain woofer loading "pressurize" a room better than others. bandpass subwoofers are said to be very good at this. Other woofer loading, bass reflex, sealed, etc do it butnot as well. I must say that this requires that the room be well sealed first and good bass from the system. I first noticed this phenomenon with the Genesis 1 at Lyric Audio. Mike Kay is a good friend and was very gracious with me. I would simply drop by and listen to music with him .. When a customer would come and needed his presence I was left to play with whatever equipment he had in the main listening room and the Gen 1 does things in the bass that to this day I haven't heard from any speakers ... Room pressurization is done by Bass waves , the displacement of air in the very low bass crated the effect.. The speaker system must be able to move copious amount of Air .. The Genesis are almost sans pareil in this regard .. there are some other speakers that can do it. It is not i my expereince a function of source although due to the superior Bass performance of most digital they are potentially better , IMHO, IME ..
Now when it comes to unfettered dynamics, I have gotten that from digital and cannot understand the position of many about analog having more dynamics than digital, objectively there is no discussion this case is closed sealed and archived .. Subjectively? I don't understand what is being said .. I truly don't .. For the record (pun intended) my analog rig was destroyed but it was very, very good. Basis TT with Graham Arm all mounted on Vibraplane Isolation Platform with Koetsu, Lyra, Miyabi and some other cartridges, I think I have a decent grasp of what good anlaog is ... at least on vinyl ... Never did I find analog more dynamic than what the Burmester DAC and transport could coerce... Talking about a "balc" background that is what you get with Burmest Digital and Electronics .. Music comes with no noise at all no hiss, no nothing just the music isin all its splendor and with the use of 3-subwoofers in a Geddes set-up (One in the corner, two in the fron t plane on each side walls ) .. The room could be pressurize on LP or CD .. I did find the CD superior on bass consistently as it should be ...
YMMV, I doubt it though
@mep .. I don't understand how the treble can pressurize the room. We are certainly not talking about the same things... What is usually admited as pressurization is just that the feeling of pressure , almost physical presure building on one's body .. This is felt because of bass there is no way a tweeter can cause this .. What you are describing is a different phenomenon.. Could be unusually high SPL with respect to average song SPL in the lower treble , the sensation can be akin to some pressure on the ears .. I wouldn't equate that to pressurizing the room .. Let's not stretch definitions too much else we are all lost and it becomes a "Dialogue de Sourds" ...
Not perhaps ... and you know it... Certain woofer loading "pressurize" a room better than others. bandpass subwoofers are said to be very good at this. Other woofer loading, bass reflex, sealed, etc do it butnot as well. I must say that this requires that the room be well sealed first and good bass from the system. I first noticed this phenomenon with the Genesis 1 at Lyric Audio. Mike Kay is a good friend and was very gracious with me. I would simply drop by and listen to music with him .. When a customer would come and needed his presence I was left to play with whatever equipment he had in the main listening room and the Gen 1 does things in the bass that to this day I haven't heard from any speakers ... Room pressurization is done by Bass waves , the displacement of air in the very low bass crated the effect.. The speaker system must be able to move copious amount of Air .. The Genesis are almost sans pareil in this regard .. there are some other speakers that can do it. It is not i my expereince a function of source although due to the superior Bass performance of most digital they are potentially better , IMHO, IME ..
Now when it comes to unfettered dynamics, I have gotten that from digital and cannot understand the position of many about analog having more dynamics than digital, objectively there is no discussion this case is closed sealed and archived .. Subjectively? I don't understand what is being said .. I truly don't .. For the record (pun intended) my analog rig was destroyed but it was very, very good. Basis TT with Graham Arm all mounted on Vibraplane Isolation Platform with Koetsu, Lyra, Miyabi and some other cartridges, I think I have a decent grasp of what good anlaog is ... at least on vinyl ... Never did I find analog more dynamic than what the Burmester DAC and transport could coerce... Talking about a "balc" background that is what you get with Burmest Digital and Electronics .. Music comes with no noise at all no hiss, no nothing just the music isin all its splendor and with the use of 3-subwoofers in a Geddes set-up (One in the corner, two in the fron t plane on each side walls ) .. The room could be pressurize on LP or CD .. I did find the CD superior on bass consistently as it should be ...
YMMV, I doubt it though
@mep .. I don't understand how the treble can pressurize the room. We are certainly not talking about the same things... What is usually admited as pressurization is just that the feeling of pressure , almost physical presure building on one's body .. This is felt because of bass there is no way a tweeter can cause this .. What you are describing is a different phenomenon.. Could be unusually high SPL with respect to average song SPL in the lower treble , the sensation can be akin to some pressure on the ears .. I wouldn't equate that to pressurizing the room .. Let's not stretch definitions too much else we are all lost and it becomes a "Dialogue de Sourds" ...
That is precisely what I was trying to define so thank you for helping out.The feeling is one which I personally have not had with CD
That is as good a way of describing it as any: it is a definite sensation separate from conventional, relatively low level listening. Being close, very close to a live brass, or big band certainly will give you plenty of that, even in the open air!
Agreed, with digital playback it is frequently a struggle to get everything right, so that this capability is always on hand. My experience has been that when CD playback is 99% there it's almost intolerable, has the personality of a prize fighter, wielding a barrage or assault of sound on your ears; the trick is to get the last 1% right. When that happens, pressurising, huge dynamics, massive soundstages, all fall into place ...
Frank
Is analog r.a.d.i.o. better than digital CD?
You know, in respect to ... well, ... analog sound.
You know, in respect to ... well, ... analog sound.
My take, Bob, is that all sound, music, is good. But you knew that! :b:b
I have at times done a few experiments with radio reception, even TV reception, and have no doubt that they can be made to sound spectacularly good. Hey, just imagine a doco on TV; or insipid radio ad pressuring your room with big, big sound!! Just the thing to blow those casual visitors to your home off their chairs!
So, the answer is not that they will be "better", but rather that they can be made to sound very, very real, very impressive, have all the attributes of lusted after audiophile sound ...
Frank
Hey Frank, why is that that people sometimes can be quite disagreable?
Like just for example: seven hours ago (just a bit more), I posted a nice post in another forum about the last few Blu-rays I watched in the last few days.
Right after that post I couldn't go to another thread! I couldn't access the forum anymore, and a message popped up saying: An Error Has Occurred: Sorry, but you have been banned from this forum...
I'm still in the dark, and I'm the only one.
Thanks Frank. :b
P.S. My PC is not assisting me right now, and the music sounds awful!
Like just for example: seven hours ago (just a bit more), I posted a nice post in another forum about the last few Blu-rays I watched in the last few days.
Right after that post I couldn't go to another thread! I couldn't access the forum anymore, and a message popped up saying: An Error Has Occurred: Sorry, but you have been banned from this forum...
I'm still in the dark, and I'm the only one.
Thanks Frank. :b
P.S. My PC is not assisting me right now, and the music sounds awful!
Bob, there are days like that; I've had a few more than my fair share lately, I reckon. Was woken up out deep sleep this morning, took ages to feel in tune with the day, volume control's playing up again, would not call today a winner ...
I think sometimes the best thing is just to hang in there, do what has to be done for the day, and sleep it off .
Blow me down, Bob! You're my lucky charm: the system just came good -- just feel better for having done that for me!!
All the best ... cheers,
Frank
I think sometimes the best thing is just to hang in there, do what has to be done for the day, and sleep it off .
Blow me down, Bob! You're my lucky charm: the system just came good -- just feel better for having done that for me!!
All the best ... cheers,
Frank
I'm better now, music sounds fine (Jazz playing; sax...);
life still lives, planet still turns, people are still people...
I finished school a long time ago, and I'm ready again.
Everything I know has to be relearned anew to go with our times...
I feel good now, there is a light, a nice tune on the horizon ...
I luv you Frank, you are my true friend. :b
All the very Best right back at you,
Bob
life still lives, planet still turns, people are still people...
I finished school a long time ago, and I'm ready again.
Everything I know has to be relearned anew to go with our times...
I feel good now, there is a light, a nice tune on the horizon ...
I luv you Frank, you are my true friend. :b
All the very Best right back at you,
Bob
Anybody know the origins of the concept of "pressurizing the room?" There doesn't seem to be much consensus around what it is....
Tim
Tim
I can offer a tentative and personal definition. Let me introduce my "Room pressurization meter". This is an oil lamp with an internal burnglass that consists of a burn chamber around the wick, and a cylinder that runs up to the rim of the outer decorative glass. You don't really need the outer glass, and can probably make do with a lamp such as the one on the right in this link: http://www.burchardgalleries.com/auctions/1999/dec1299/oillamps.jpg
My listening room is 7mx4.3mx3.2m, and I can close the doors leading to it. My previous set-up had large subs at L and R positions, that were working in synchronization, and that together could move 3.6 liters of air with each pulse. There were woofers in addition, but it was the large subs that did the hard work. As a party-trick I could extinguish the flame in my "room pressurization meter" even though it was placed 5m away from the subwoofers. It was easier to do with the doors closed, and it was guaranteed to happen during the timpani booms of the Boulez Mahler 3, in the opening, or the bass heavy Salonen "Rite".
When listening to NHØP working his large bass the flame would become most copacetic, as the pressure bursts would push down the little funnel and make the flame shrink and grow. An excellent pressurization meter!
Now, I don't like excessive and boomy bass, but enjoy a realistic rendition of acoustical instruments that go to the nether regions, and when those include bass resonances, then it's good to see that these are present and alive in one's listening room.
A good "room pressurization test" is to play Nicholas Payton's "Triptych" track, if the subs are correctly placed, in phase and working together, you'll wonder at what's happening inside your listening room, and your head.
Recommended RPM - room pressurization meter:
My listening room is 7mx4.3mx3.2m, and I can close the doors leading to it. My previous set-up had large subs at L and R positions, that were working in synchronization, and that together could move 3.6 liters of air with each pulse. There were woofers in addition, but it was the large subs that did the hard work. As a party-trick I could extinguish the flame in my "room pressurization meter" even though it was placed 5m away from the subwoofers. It was easier to do with the doors closed, and it was guaranteed to happen during the timpani booms of the Boulez Mahler 3, in the opening, or the bass heavy Salonen "Rite".
When listening to NHØP working his large bass the flame would become most copacetic, as the pressure bursts would push down the little funnel and make the flame shrink and grow. An excellent pressurization meter!
Now, I don't like excessive and boomy bass, but enjoy a realistic rendition of acoustical instruments that go to the nether regions, and when those include bass resonances, then it's good to see that these are present and alive in one's listening room.
A good "room pressurization test" is to play Nicholas Payton's "Triptych" track, if the subs are correctly placed, in phase and working together, you'll wonder at what's happening inside your listening room, and your head.
Recommended RPM - room pressurization meter:
Frantz,
Yes, I know it, but IMHO you don’t know what I know, so I need to tell people what I know. It seems you are persuaded that audiophiles are always trying to hide something.
As you, I feel that the pressurizing debate should not be carried in this thread – both analogue and CD (redbook, let us assume the digital format what people listen mostly) can do it. But, and I have nothing but a few experiences to support it, no other evidence, systems optimized for delivering it in one support usually fail to deliver in the other.
A good friend of mine had also an excellent system with big Genesis speakers with bass towers. Using analog, it could pressurize the room to an unbelievable point. He tried many top expensive DACs and CD players, but never got anything similar. This was 15 years ago, may be digital implementations are now better. But I would love that our measuring people could explain me what the top DACs of today (or your Burmester, that I respect) do better in the area responsible for “pressurizing” than the Thetas, Krells, Levinsons he tried.
Some people are calling “pressurizing” what others call “the bass couples with room”. IMH jargon these are different things, although the second helps the first. But I also have listened to a pair of Magico Mini2, driven by ARC Ref610s systematically pressuring a room in an unbelievable way. IMHO, my Soundlabs A1 PX, using the big VTL MB750s could “pressurize” the room better than the Wilson Maxx3 using CDs. But the bass reproduction of the Maxx3 is surely better than that of the A1s and my room has excessive length over width ratio.
As usual, these are memories of single experiences of the past, non reproducible, that can only be of interest if other people have related or similar experiences to tell and compare. I enjoy reading the posts in this type of threads, not because I agree with all that the posters say or they support me, but because even in posts with which I can not fully agree or even disagree I sometimes I find something that I also have experienced and helps me understanding these mysteries. And perhaps make my future decisions wiser.
Yes, I doubt it is a media-dependent effect (tape, vinyl, cd). I have Nat King Cole's "Love is the Thing" on the original tape, in excellent condition, and on the Acoustech 2x45 vinyl in Mint condition. The latter clearly creates stronger resonances than the tape, but I haven't tried the digital media that resulted from the Gray/Hoffman mastering. Might be worth an experiment, that.
Well placed speakers, in a suitable room, establish a strong physical presence "in the air" for resonating music. I suspect the trick is to avoid cancellations.
BUT - ref the discussion about media noise. Against the black of digital, I guess that non-intrusive tape noise, or groove noise, can serve to establish a background presence, against which it feels more natural to hang the music.
Last edited:
Frantz,
Yes, I know it, but IMHO you don’t know what I know, so I need to tell people what I know. It seems you are persuaded that audiophiles are always trying to hide something.
As you, I feel that the pressurizing debate should not be carried in this thread – both analogue and CD (redbook, let us assume the digital format what people listen mostly) can do it. But, and I have nothing but a few experiences to support it, no other evidence, systems optimized for delivering it in one support usually fail to deliver in the other.
A good friend of mine had also an excellent system with big Genesis speakers with bass towers. Using analog, it could pressurize the room to an unbelievable point. He tried many top expensive DACs and CD players, but never got anything similar. This was 15 years ago, may be digital implementations are now better. But I would love that our measuring people could explain me what the top DACs of today (or your Burmester, that I respect) do better in the area responsible for “pressurizing” than the Thetas, Krells, Levinsons he tried.
Some people are calling “pressurizing” what others call “the bass couples with room”. IMH jargon these are different things, although the second helps the first. But I also have listened to a pair of Magico Mini2, driven by ARC Ref610s systematically pressuring a room in an unbelievable way. IMHO, my Soundlabs A1 PX, using the big VTL MB750s could “pressurize” the room better than the Wilson Maxx3 using CDs. But the bass reproduction of the Maxx3 is surely better than that of the A1s and my room has excessive length over width ratio.
As usual, these are memories of single experiences of the past, non reproducible, that can only be of interest if other people have related or similar experiences to tell and compare. I enjoy reading the posts in this type of threads, not because I agree with all that the posters say or they support me, but because even in posts with which I can not fully agree or even disagree I sometimes I find something that I also have experienced and helps me understanding these mysteries. And perhaps make my future decisions wiser.
Micro
You are extremely proficient on the technology of Sound reproduction. I know that and you know it too
I do believe however that too often you obfuscate, sorry for the ad hominem here, to win an argument. According to Wikipedia
I would think based on this definition that yo need to move air to feel the sense of "pressurization" .. The range where lot of air moves is in the bass not the treble. yet, one could have excellent bass reproduction down to 1 Hz it without excellent room pressurization. This depend in good part of the room seal with respect to frequency .. Simply closing the doors doesn't guarantee great pressurization .. and of course This is not done in the treble... Simply not... can't do ... This is not a function of the source... heck with he right bass alignment for example Bandpass subwoofers within a well sealed room, early DVD, yes those with the lossy , compression on Audio, the early DVD, not Bluray, those with less than CD-quality, would do it to an extent where you feel the pressure on your body ... Speakers and room, in the bass nowhere else ...
The tactile impression is brought by bass
And that Micro, I know you know it
Micro
You are extremely proficient on the technology of Sound reproduction. I know that and you know it too
According to Wikipedia I would think based on this definition that yo need to move air to feel the sense of "pressurization" .. The range where lot of air moves is in the bass not the treble. yet, one could have excellent bass reproduction down to 1 Hz it without excellent room pressurization. This depend in good part of the room seal with respect to frequency .. Simply closing the doors doesn't guarantee great pressurization .. and of course This is not done in the treble... Simply not... can't do ... This is not a function of the source... heck with he right bass alignment for example Bandpass subwoofers within a well sealed room, early DVD, yes those with the lossy , compression on Audio, the early DVD, not Bluray, those with less than CD-quality, would do it to an extent where you feel the pressure on your body ... Speakers and room, in the bass nowhere else ...
The tactile impression is brought by bass
And that Micro, I know you know it
Frantz,
There is something you seem not to understand - I am not at WBF to win anything - just to enjoy and participate . And surely I have my views and experience, but I am not proficient or an expert in sound technology anyway - I can look at my Amazon files to find when I bought my copy of Toole Sound Reproduction , but I can assure you it was only after I joined WBF and learned about Sean Olive from Amir posts. OK, as it seems we are in a AA type session - I have the full collection of TAS, including #1 (I hope this confession does not send me in the ignore list of too many members...)
. High-end is per se is a subjective and confusing experience. Trying to reduce it to a ONLY a simple scientific and exact debate means IMHO oversimplification and leads to wrong conclusions, as we are not audio scientists. Some people will surely disagree on this point.
In this debate, using wikipedia physical definition of pressure will not lead anyway - it will only show we are using a technically incorrect word to define a subjective feeling or sensation. BTW I have read Mark Weiss site about bass reproduction - and I know for him pressurizing has a completely different meaning than for me. He would be smiling if he reads our posts ...
Many are victims of the misconception that sound moves air - soundwaves move through the air, but the air molecules do not move much. A bass driver transfers more energy into the medium, as a large rock does when dropped into a lake, but note that the water from where the rock struck the surface does not race towards the shore. It's the released energy that races for the shore, through the medium of the water, by way of the traveling wavefronts dissipating the initiating energy.
The same takes place in a listening room, where the loudspeakers set soundwaves moving through the air. These waves travel, carrying energy. But the air molecules do not "fly unidirectionally from the speaker towards the listener", in spite of what the ad with the guy in the chair being blown back made many believe.
A lot of misconceptions about audio stem from this erroneous perception of what actually happens between loudspeaker and listener. In fact, even at very high levels of perceived SPL, the density of molecules in a volume of air is increased by a surprisingly small factor as the corresponding soundwaves pass through it.
The pressurization we feel when a bass element moves is due to the sudden shock of a larger volume of air being compressed, and is therefore also felt stronger if the doors are closed. The larger the volume of the room, the greater displacement is required by the bass drivers in order for their effect not to simply dissipate into this volume.
The same takes place in a listening room, where the loudspeakers set soundwaves moving through the air. These waves travel, carrying energy. But the air molecules do not "fly unidirectionally from the speaker towards the listener", in spite of what the ad with the guy in the chair being blown back made many believe.
A lot of misconceptions about audio stem from this erroneous perception of what actually happens between loudspeaker and listener. In fact, even at very high levels of perceived SPL, the density of molecules in a volume of air is increased by a surprisingly small factor as the corresponding soundwaves pass through it.
The pressurization we feel when a bass element moves is due to the sudden shock of a larger volume of air being compressed, and is therefore also felt stronger if the doors are closed. The larger the volume of the room, the greater displacement is required by the bass drivers in order for their effect not to simply dissipate into this volume.
Room Pressurization ...
There; "...and inside your head, against it, in your ears, in your eyes, ..."
Out of Phase, uncontrolled, ... By the power of the sounds bouncing off the walls and corners and boundaries of the room that surrounds all of you ...
Room Pressurization; in a controllable way, in Phase. Acoustically controlled closures & openings ...
The low audio frequencies, and the high ones too (up to a certain extent) ...
There; "...and inside your head, against it, in your ears, in your eyes, ..."
Out of Phase, uncontrolled, ... By the power of the sounds bouncing off the walls and corners and boundaries of the room that surrounds all of you ...
Room Pressurization; in a controllable way, in Phase. Acoustically controlled closures & openings ...
The low audio frequencies, and the high ones too (up to a certain extent) ...
Dear Dr. Charles Zeilig and Jay Clawson:
Many internet downloads including HI-Res are inverted polarity. Please see http://www.AbsolutePolarity.com.
Best regards,
George S. Louis, Esq. CEO
Digital Systems & Solutions
Website: www.GetBetterHiFi.com
Phone: 619-401-9876
Many internet downloads including HI-Res are inverted polarity. Please see http://www.AbsolutePolarity.com.
Best regards,
George S. Louis, Esq. CEO
Digital Systems & Solutions
Website: www.GetBetterHiFi.com
Phone: 619-401-9876
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