Tesla Model 3 | Tesla seeks $1.5 billion junk bonds issue to fund Model 3 production

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
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Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
Waiting an hour to charge sucks. EVs need to get to 10 minutes to be successful

Not really if they put some attractive entertainment near those recharging stations. ...Like jazz music clubs, blues cabarets and good food restaurants...Italian, Greek, Thai, Chinese, French, etc.

It'll become like that eventually, and that'll be a good thing. IMO
 

Empirical Audio

Industry Expert
Oct 12, 2017
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Great Pacific Northwest
www.empiricalaudio.com
Waiting an hour to charge sucks. EVs need to get to 10 minutes to be successful

If you are charging in your garage while you are eating dinner or sleeping at night, who cares? This is how you charge for commuting.

It's only on vacations and long trips that you need Superchargers. You just plan to take lunch or a break when you charge. It's good to take breaks and bathroom stops anyway. If you cannot do this on vacation trips, you need more vacations. You need to get a life.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

Empirical Audio

Industry Expert
Oct 12, 2017
1,169
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Great Pacific Northwest
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You do your own cause a disservice because of your rhetoric and your attitude. Maybe you should look at how you come across to others, you're exactly what the far right is talking about and who they disparage as being an out-of-touch condescending liberal elitist. You're so far left you have the same kind of blinders on the far right does, and you're both too ignorant to realize it.

This is said as someone who hates the current administration and supports renewable energy to the point I got an engineering degree and worked for the world's largest wind turbine manufacturer. As someone who supports clean energy and thinks the 1st priority of mankind should be reducing the impact of climate change, please either keep quiet or get a little more realistic and cut out the ridiculous condescending attitude, you're doing more harm than good. People will believe and do the opposite of what you say because of your attitude regardless of facts. Think about it, please.

I have thought about it and I have read deeply about it. According to organizations that track the major threats to mankind, Global Warming is right up at the top of the list, higher than disease, higher than nuclear war, higher than an asteroid event. Do your own research.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

Empirical Audio

Industry Expert
Oct 12, 2017
1,169
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Great Pacific Northwest
www.empiricalaudio.com
it's still (1) a small slice of the marketplace, and (2) not profitable for any manufacturer short massive subsidies. the established manufacturers are doing it to protect share, and at the expense of overall profits. newcomers count on subsidies both to build factories and for research, and then tax credits to consumers legislated from government.

it's all smoke and mirrors with no possible underlying economic basis for likely 5+ years. Wall Street or overseas VC funny money and everyone's taxes.

with Honda, who is all in right now, it's robbing all the profits (and we are feeling the effects) to fuel Electrification.

smugness from EV fans is based on a house of cards. the first (next) ill wind will blow it down.


Seems to me they said the same kinds of things when the ICE replaced the horse-and-buggy.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
smugness from EV fans is based on a house of cards. the first (next) ill wind will blow it down

How so Mike. That’s a pretty bold statement.

In the community in which I live one out of every 3-4 cars is an EV. I don’t own one.
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
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How so Mike. That’s a pretty bold statement.

In the community in which I live one out of every 3-4 cars is an EV. I don’t own one.

auto manufacturing 101; every model run costs 2-3 Billion $$$'s. that's billion with a 'B'. they count on the model run hitting a volume number whereas there are profits. 1/3rd of those profits go to the bottom line. 2/3'rds of the profits get applied to fund the next model. and so on.

if one or two or three 'Electrified' models get built where there will never be sufficient volume to (1) provide profits to the bottom line, and (2) to help fund future models.....eventually the whole enterprise suffers. when an industry re-tasks profits into products which have such a marginal return, only held up by government support and speculative funding.......a precarious spot to be in.......and let's say a '2008 recession' type event occurs......real quick all the largesse underpinning this wishful tech gets pulled. there is no economic basis for these products....it's all 'green' smoke.

wish for a continued bull market, and no recession. if we make it 5 or 10 years it might turn out to be real.

and Steve, your community is likely a 1% or maybe even 1/2% community. I live in one too. there is a whole real world out there where it's not like that.
 

mountainjoe

Industry Expert
Mar 25, 2015
168
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Bay Area, California
eigenaudio.com
auto manufacturing 101; every model run costs 2-3 Billion $$$'s. that's billion with a 'B'. they count on the model run hitting a volume number whereas there are profits. 1/3rd of those profits go to the bottom line. 2/3'rds of the profits get applied to fund the next model. and so on.

if one or two or three 'Electrified' models get built where there will never be sufficient volume to (1) provide profits to the bottom line, and (2) to help fund future models.....eventually the whole enterprise suffers. when an industry re-tasks profits into products which have such a marginal return, only held up by government support and speculative funding.......a precarious spot to be in.......and let's say a '2008 recession' type event occurs......real quick all the largesse underpinning this wishful tech gets pulled. there is no economic basis for these products....it's all 'green' smoke.

wish for a continued bull market, and no recession. if we make it 5 or 10 years it might turn out to be real.

and Steve, your community is likely a 1% or maybe even 1/2% community. I live in one too. there is a whole real world out there where it's not like that.

There are offsetting considerations such as - once the middle class in China starts to really grow and purchase more (ICE) cars (already happening), the demand for oil will go up significantly and eventually eclipse the demand in the US. This is one reason why China is pursuing alternative forms of energy and transportation - they understand this dynamic very well and are preparing for it.

At some point this demand will drive oil prices sky high which will dramatically shift the economics of EVs globally. A couple of decades or so behind China is India - things will only get worse.

Perhaps Tesla will not survive to this inflection point, but I have no doubts it is coming - only a matter of when.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
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Beverly Hills, CA
Waiting an hour to charge sucks. EVs need to get to 10 minutes to be successful

Porsche has announced that the Taycan’s 800 volt charger will re-charge the car’s battery system sufficiently in 15 minutes to travel a distance of 250 miles.

I love my SL550 so I have never paid any attention to EV developments by major automobile manufacturers. Now that the two-seat SL550 will be gone after the 2019 model year I have begun paying attention to near-term future EV cars.

Why would anyone but a Tesla shareholder buy a Tesla Model S after the Porsche Taycan becomes available? The Taycan looks so interesting that it may incline me to accept a 2+2 in the future, rather than replace my 2009 SL550 with one of the last two-seat SLs from the last production year of that style of SL.

I think the Taycan is going to cause a lot of sales trouble for the Model S.

PS: It is interesting to me from an investment point of view how the battleground of polar opposite opinions on Tesla between those thinking it is headed for bankruptcy and those thinking it is headed to $1,000 per share is keeping option volatility very high.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
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I have thought about it and I have read deeply about it. According to organizations that track the major threats to mankind, Global Warming is right up at the top of the list, higher than disease, higher than nuclear war, higher than an asteroid event. Do your own research.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Steve,

I ask this question seriously, and not rhetorically: Can you please point me to a scholarly, peer-reviewed economics study which compares, on a statistically valid apples-to-apples basis, the aggregate pollution emitted by individual internal combustion car engines to the pollution emitted by the coal-fired power plants whose electricity output is being used to charge “zero emission” electric cars?
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
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it's still . . . smugness from EV fans is based on a house of cards. the first (next) ill wind will blow it down.

You are the expert here on automobile sales, Mike, don’t get me wrong. But I don’t see electric vehicles as a fleeting fad.

The rapid and serious embracement of hybrid electric vehicles by the most marquis supercar sports car manufacturers (e.g., Ferrari) combined with the all-electric vehicles from Jaguar, Audi and Porsche, suggests to me that this is a real and growing automotive trend.
 

Priaptor

Member Sponsor
Jan 28, 2012
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FL
There are offsetting considerations such as - once the middle class in China starts to really grow and purchase more (ICE) cars (already happening), the demand for oil will go up significantly and eventually eclipse the demand in the US. This is one reason why China is pursuing alternative forms of energy and transportation - they understand this dynamic very well and are preparing for it.

At some point this demand will drive oil prices sky high which will dramatically shift the economics of EVs globally. A couple of decades or so behind China is India - things will only get worse.

Perhaps Tesla will not survive to this inflection point, but I have no doubts it is coming - only a matter of when.

Good luck depending on and believing what China claims to be doing. Middle class growing in China?? Whatever that means. Are those the same people being crushed under tanks or working in the equivalent of America's sweatshops in the early 1900s?

We as a society love to look at CO2 as an indicator of Global Warming/Climate change, whereas there are many other variables. Methane, in the first 2 decades of it's release has 84-86x more global warming effect than CO2 but the way we measure normalized for CO2 which lasts for centuries, thereby skewing the reality of methane.

It is so easy to bury our heads in the sand, ignore the statistics and just buy into all the propaganda. Right now, the USA, accounts for 15% of all CO2 emissions worldwide. China 30% and the EU 9%. China and the USA have similarly disparate geographical footprints yet China has a fraction of the automobiles the USA has. Currently, 28% of CO2 emissions in the USA comes from "transportation" of which 60% occurs from small vehicles, namely cars etc that S. Nugent is so concerned about.

The other reality is that in today's world, exclusive of building, mining and disposal costs to the environment, the true reduction of CO2 emissions between gas powered vehicles v. EV from the grid is about 50-60%, the best case scenario, exclusive of direct environmental impacts. So we have (.15x.28x.6x.5)=1.3% reduction in CO2 emissions Worldwide, if every car in the USA was EV; and that is the best case scenario ignoring the impact of mining, disposal and the fact that more of our solar grid is being manufactured by China, the biggest polluter in the world in manufacturing solar.

Of course the devil is in the details. The economic and environmental impact of mining rare metals, more and more occurring in 3rd world eonomies, the most polluting. The EU and USA, the biggest utilizers of solar energy, have farmed out their manufacturing to China, the biggest polluters. Despite what some may think, lots of energy, disposable and hazardous waste aside from mining has a tremendous environmental footprint and we have farmed this out to the biggest polluter in the World, namely China, which is not even part of the footprint calculation.

Should mountainjoe be correct, which I don't think he will, developing economies, like India etc, utilizing even more polluting energy will be the next source of "cheap labor" and hence locations to make our solar panels, lithium batteries, etc. creating even bigger environmental footprints than they do now (the etc. according to the EPA worldwide currently account for 60% of CO2 emissions)

Of course this ignores the methane factor as well as so many other factors. Methane as I state is 84-86x worse of greenhouse gas as is CO2 in the first two decades of release but the way environmentalists evaluate greenhouse gas over centuries, the effect gets mitigated because the HUGE effect in the first two decades gets spread out. Yes, Methane was a bigger factor before man became aware and the bigger and growing factor of methane is coming from people, cattle and more importantly from hydroelectric which so many environmentalists endorse. How? Well behind the dam, still water generates more bacteria, which emits more methane. The same happens in the dry river deltas. In their infinite wisdom, the US government chose to increase flow to the now dry and desolate CO river delta to try to revive the Mexican economy once dependent on flow and Methane emissions went up 100x as a result of the spores that were dormant. Or Owens Lake, just east of LA, now the totally drained and the biggest cause of dust pollution in the US.

Yes, there is hope as alternative rare metal manufacturing is emerging but if you are dependent on China for this don't hold your breath. No one is knocking down dams anytime soon, a bigger impact on Global Warming than any impact on what Americans drive every single day. In fact, in emerging markets just the opposite is happening.

So as Mike has pointed out, yeah, those who may see 1/4 of all vehicles being electric can feel "good" but as he pointed out, it makes up a tiny % and as I point out, the real difference is miniscule.
 
Last edited:

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,602
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You are the expert here on automobile sales, Mike, don’t get me wrong. But I don’t see electric vehicles as a fleeting fad.

I've not inferred EV is a fad. only that there is lots of risk involved that enough volume is developed to transition from all the subsidies and red ink to a viable economic equation.

right now every one of my customers are paying for Electric Vehicles with costs added to fund EV's by Honda, plus taxes that support it. will this bring about a long term greater good? Honda is very committed to Electrification. but behind the scenes my view is that EV long term viability is not certain.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
auto manufacturing 101; every model run costs 2-3 Billion $$$'s. that's billion with a 'B'. they count on the model run hitting a volume number whereas there are profits. 1/3rd of those profits go to the bottom line. 2/3'rds of the profits get applied to fund the next model. and so on.

if one or two or three 'Electrified' models get built where there will never be sufficient volume to (1) provide profits to the bottom line, and (2) to help fund future models.....eventually the whole enterprise suffers. when an industry re-tasks profits into products which have such a marginal return, only held up by government support and speculative funding.......a precarious spot to be in.......and let's say a '2008 recession' type event occurs......real quick all the largesse underpinning this wishful tech gets pulled. there is no economic basis for these products....it's all 'green' smoke.

wish for a continued bull market, and no recession. if we make it 5 or 10 years it might turn out to be real.

and Steve, your community is likely a 1% or maybe even 1/2% community. I live in one too. there is a whole real world out there where it's not like that.

So Mike

You are saying that EV!s are doomed to failure

BTW my next door neighbor as well as another 3 houses away have a Taycan on order. It’s in my top 3 right now that I’m looking at

Is your. beef with Tesla or EV’s in general Mike.
 

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
181
458
La Jolla, Calif USA
it's still (1) a small slice of the marketplace, and (2) not profitable for any manufacturer short massive subsidies. the established manufacturers are doing it to protect share, and at the expense of overall profits. newcomers count on subsidies both to build factories and for research, and then tax credits to consumers legislated from government.

it's all smoke and mirrors with no possible underlying economic basis for likely 5+ years. Wall Street or overseas VC funny money and everyone's taxes.

with Honda, who is all in right now, it's robbing all the profits (and we are feeling the effects) to fuel Electrification.

smugness from EV fans is based on a house of cards. the first (next) ill wind will blow it down.

Some great points here, Mike. Particularly interesting is that a verifiable giant like Honda is spending so much on the EV. They clearly must believe in the basic concept...and that it is the way of the future. Wouldn’t you agree that Honda are a company that don’t do things in a random fashion...or for that matter in an irresponsible manner.
One point that hasn’t really been stressed enough, is that the continuing reliance on OPEC, and their immense thirst for never ending massive profits, can’t be a good thing.
Question becomes with EV’s is how much the electricial utilities see this as their chance for the ultimate money grab...
I think only time will tell on this.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Some great points here, Mike. Particularly interesting is that a verifiable giant like Honda is spending so much on the EV. They clearly must believe in the basic concept...and that it is the way of the future. Wouldn’t you agree that Honda are a company that don’t do things in a random fashion...or for that matter in an irresponsible manner.
One point that hasn’t really been stressed enough, is that the continuing reliance on OPEC, and their immense thirst for never ending massive profits, can’t be a good thing.
Question becomes with EV’s is how much the electricial utilities see this as their chance for the ultimate money grab...
I think only time will tell on this.

Davey

The reality is that most people with EV’s charge them with solar so forget about the electric companies thinking the EV is a cash cow
 

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
6,261
4,043
995
Utah
I've not inferred EV is a fad. only that there is lots of risk involved that enough volume is developed to transition from all the subsidies and red ink to a viable economic equation.

right now every one of my customers are paying for Electric Vehicles with costs added to fund EV's by Honda, plus taxes that support it. will this bring about a long term greater good? Honda is very committed to Electrification. but behind the scenes my view is that EV long term viability is not certain.

I feel the same Mike and don’t believe that EVs in their current guise are sustainable without government incentives. I also think Tesla will have a harder time with its novelty value gone and more competition from the big boys. Besides the two models I drove were extremely boring cars, but that’s the curse of many cars built today...

david
 

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
181
458
La Jolla, Calif USA
Davey

The reality is that most people with EV’s charge them with solar so forget about the electric companies thinking the EV is a cash cow


Steve, while that may very well be true at the moment, I doubt it will be into the future. Solar is a little bit on the pricey side for most people, and of course, it assumes a climate that is conducive to solar production.
On a global scale, the consumption/production and pricing of electrical power will be the next big thing when it comes to EV’s.
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
24,305
1,323
435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
If there isn't enough sun to charge them from solar panels perhaps there's enough wind to recharge them from wind turbines?

Fifty years from now we'll be all dead, the majority of us WBF members, except the few lucky ones under 40 and lucky enough to make it through 90. Electric cars by then will be the norm, and ICE cars all banned.
It's not us who will live that reality, it's the children of our children.
But it's us now who show leadership in a cleaner and healthier environment, using the best energy resources for humans and their home...planet Earth.

Elon Musk is making history and in wiki will be remembered as a leader in electric cars with Tesla, in the like of Steve Jobs and Bill Gates, & his tweets from Twitter.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
If there isn't enough sun to charge them from solar panels perhaps there's enough wind to recharge them from wind turbines?

Fifty years from now we'll be all dead, the majority of us WBF members, except the few lucky ones under 40 and lucky enough to make it through 90. Electric cars by then will be the norm, and ICE cars all banned.
It's not us who will live that reality, it's the children of our children.
But it's us now who show leadership in a cleaner and healthier environment, using the best energy resources for humans and their home...planet Earth.

Elon Musk is making history and in wiki will be remembered as a leader in electric cars with Tesla, in the like of Steve Jobs and Bill Gates, & his tweets from Twitter.

Dead on !!

It's the future

Ive driven my son's Model 3 and there was nothing structurally wrong with it and it was a truly fun drive. In the coming generations the ICE will have gone into extinction.

I agree with quality control issues as they should never happen and I remain skeptical that Musk has the ability to remain as CEO. Having said that, the man is a visionary and no one can fault him for that. The arguments I see against Tesla and Musk remind some 30 years ago with a guy named Steve Jobs who with his little Apple took on the PC industry with a whole new model. There were never (other than briefly)clones such as there were with PC's.

Jobs was scoffed at and ridiculed yet we know how the story ended. All about the Little Train who thought he could...... knew he could, and did. Apple became the first trillion dollar company

As to my thoughts about the integration of solar roof top energy I remain convinced that this is the future.

Solar is not all that pricey when you factor in a 30% tax credit and it is only getting better and the prices are coming down. I'm putting a 10.8 Kw grid on my roof next week which will produce way more electricity than I consume, so much so that my July electric bill (in the midst of one of the hottest summers in California history) which was the highest electric bill in my entire life at $1000 (just me and my wife in our house) will decrease immediately to $11/month which is merely the cost SDGE charges to connect to there grid. With my solar system I will be producing way more than I need and can bank my unused kwh's


IMO solar energy and EV's are intimately associated in the great scheme of things

MikeL has said I live in a community where 1/2 to 1% can live. I do live in a community of highly intelligent and financially secure individuals who IMO are trend setters. As I stated EV's run abundant here and houses with solar energy are amongst the highest in the nation. On my street all but 2 houses have solar energy

BTW, the time to jump onto solar is always now even though the technology continues to improves and the prices decrease because the rumors that the 30% tax credit for solar might not last forever.

With what I am placing on my roof, with the price I paid less the tax credit, my system will have paid for itself in 3 years and 8 months

Finally to address the stiff world wide competition that Tesla will face in the future is al good as it is competition which drives prices down as well as make the technology better
 

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