Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[Taiko Audio]

If I'm not mistaken, Emile has at his disposal a Metronome Kalista to spin silver discs. Surely that would serve as a benchmark of sorts. More than anyone I know, Emile fits the definition of an "Extreme owner".

More properly, "The Extreme owner".

Steve Z

I do indeed own the very first Extreme ever build, aka "The Extreme" and own a Kalista Dreamplay CD https://kalista-audio.com/en/dreamplaycd-en/

 

[Taiko Audio]

I would be very interested in hearing the experiences of Extreme owners that have compared it to transports with CD's feeding their DAC. I have not equipped up for such, but I'm curious if there are transport options that could offer even more. How do things compare in your system? Is there equivalence or is one better to your ears?

There have been several comparisons posted in this thread over the years to various CD transports but it has become so long closing in on 20.000 posts that I can't even find them anymore. I could give you a short answer but this is actually an interesting topic for a "deep dive" as there are many variables in play, I have a bit of a busy schedule today but will start writing now, will likely have a few interruptions but should have it done in the next couple of hours.

 

[Christiaan Punter]

I have been following this thread for a bit and can only comment on a few things.
1 - The Taiko IS a beautiful piece of kit. It’s also VFH. Taking Emile’s advice keeps my chiropractor at bay.
2 - I have the Taiko on a Daiza platform with the simplistic view that there’s a chance that it might have been done at the factory during testing. Just a guess.
3 - It’s sitting on an ash Massif Audio rack which come with Sound Care Super Spikes. Nothing fancy. Just incredibly dense.
4 - All of this is sitting on a floor above my landlord who is unable to tell when my Pilium driven Alsyvox’s are playing. I’m also guessing that the whole thing isn’t transmitting vibrations either to or from enough to phase the Taiko.
Even though I take isolation seriously (refer to attached pictures)I try to consider that everything vibrates and I’m really trying to tune the system and not avoid vibrations as much as I’m trying to work with it.

Nice system and aesthetics! I am a sucker for symmetry

While the Daiza works very well with the Extreme, it is no longer in production and it is not used as part of any current developments at Taiko HQ.

 

[Christiaan Punter]

I get around that by inviting my neighbors over for a listen. Works wonders IMO

Indeed, that really works for me too! As it turned out, one of my neighbors has a very keen ear yet is not "spoilt" by prejudice or audiophile knowledge. It's fun to have her listen to products and hear her come up with her own conclusions and descriptions which interestingly always turn out to be solid! It is also a great way to build in some "double-blind" testing.

 

[Blue58]

Just checking, has there been an XDMS update since 27th April. I’m not on Discord so I’m never up to date. For some reason Discord app doesn’t like me.
many thanks

cheers
Blue58

 

[John T]

Indeed, that really works for me too! As it turned out, one of my neighbors has a very keen ear yet is not "spoilt" by prejudice or audiophile knowledge. It's fun to have her listen to products and hear her come up with her own conclusions and descriptions which interestingly always turn out to be solid! It is also a great way to build in some "double-blind" testing.

For me no neighbors works out well. It is interesting to though "hear" different perspectives from non audiophiles who visit. Mostly they are overwhelmed.

 

[Blue58]

For me no neighbors works out well. It is interesting to though "hear" different perspectives from non audiophiles who visit. Mostly they are overwhelmed.

I wish I didn’t have neighbours as there’s often a ‘party’ / BBQ most weekends during warmer months. Most of my friends underwhelmed, they can’t grasp the subtleties.

I think yesterdays update was just the remote IOS update and not the ‘backend’.

Cheers

 

[Taiko Audio]

CD transport versus music server:

The first and perhaps most obvious variance is in the masters, version or issue of the source medium. If I have a CD recording I want to compare I have to rip that particular CD first, as online streaming versions or digital downloads often sound different, they can sound similar, better or worse, the variation in this is unfortunately not subtle, but different CD issues of the same recording can sound different too.

Further to this I have to rip it to uncompressed .wav to the Extreme's local storage if the goal is to achieve a similar sound signature.Note this is not a declaration of superiority for the uncompressed .wav format as there are many factors in play here. Compressed flac files are smaller in absolute size which turns it into a file transfer versus decompression game with differing noise signatures depending on the construction / configuration of the server's hard- and soft-ware. With that said, uncompressed .wav from local storage sounds closest to a CD transport.

Then we have the playback software used, the very first version of TAS using Logitech Media Server as it's front end and squeezelite as it's backend, the second version of TAS using Logitech Media Server as it's front end, a squeezelite to ASIO bridge and our own developed ASIO player (XDPlayer) as it's back end. We now have XDMS being fully coded from the ground up and of course there's Roon. Then with Roon you also have the option to replace the endpoint software with Squeezelite or HQPlayer, which are options most server vendors offer nowadays. Of all of these the current XDMS alpha does sound closest to a CD transport but the upcoming XDMS "NSM" deviates by being "smoother" /less "choppy" then CD playback, even with the same 16/44.1 source file.

Another significant contributor is the interface used. Perhaps unsurprisingly SPDIF and AES/EBU sound closer to CD then USB/Ethernet, simply because you use the same interface. USB can be better but is subject to its implementation in both Server and DAC, IMHO to a much larger degree then AES/EBU / SPDIF.

The biggest "elephant in the room" however is the sheer amount of variables introduced in streaming / server based solutions. With a CD transport variables are largely limited to the AES/EBU or SPDIF interconnect, power cable (and power quality / filtering etc) and vibration control, aftermarket footers, racks, flooring etc. With servers this extends to your network, Wi-Fi and all devices connected to this. For example, especially when using Roon which is the most "sensitive" playback software to this particular variable, Image placement can vary, change positioning and/or diffuse because of network activity. This led us to design a full network setup solution including the recently released network card and switch, and the router with Wi-Fi shipping soon. With these in place imaging is rock solid and purity/clarity is significantly enhanced.

With all of this mentioned, I do have superior performance here over CD, assuming the same source file is used, mainly in the areas of sound staging (size), detail retrieval and instrument decay, and yes, wile using Roon. Without the Router/Switch you will need XDMS for this though.

A small addition, IMHO the upcoming upgrades, like the TACDA / TACDD interface and BPS elevate everything to previously uncharted territory, I'm aware this is a bold statement, but to my, and meanwhile a few other ears, perhaps not that bold, time and your impressions will tell.

 

[Armsan]

I wish I didn’t have neighbours as there’s often a ‘party’ / BBQ most weekends during warmer months. Most of my friends underwhelmed, they can’t grasp the subtleties.

I think yesterdays update was just the remote IOS update and not the ‘backend’.

Cheers

No XDMS update since 27 of April.

 

[John T]

Talk about a in depth response from Emile on CD Transport Vs Music Server. WOW!

 

[MusicFellow]

A small addition, IMHO the upcoming upgrades, like the TACDA / TACDD interface and BPS elevate everything to previously uncharted territory, I'm aware this is a bold statement, but to my, and meanwhile a few other ears, perhaps not that bold, time and your impressions will tell.

… and there it is again: That feeling when you are 6 years old counting the days until Christmas!

Hopefully Santa can afford all those goodies… and be able to carry them without breaking that carriage.

 

[Christiaan Punter]

Just checking, has there been an XDMS update since 27th April. I’m not on Discord so I’m never up to date. For some reason Discord app doesn’t like me.
many thanks

cheers
Blue58

No XDMS update since 27 of April.

Indeed, no backend update since April. What's released since then are control app updates and scanner updates.

 

[jbrrp1]

CD transport versus music server:

The first and perhaps most obvious variance is in the masters, version or issue of the source medium. If I have a CD recording I want to compare I have to rip that particular CD first, as online streaming versions or digital downloads often sound different, they can sound similar, better or worse, the variation in this is unfortunately not subtle, but different CD issues of the same recording can sound different too.

Further to this I have to rip it to uncompressed .wav to the Extreme's local storage if the goal is to achieve a similar sound signature.Note this is not a declaration of superiority for the uncompressed .wav format as there are many factors in play here. Compressed flac files are smaller in absolute size which turns it into a file transfer versus decompression game with differing noise signatures depending on the construction / configuration of the server's hard- and soft-ware. With that said, uncompressed .wav from local storage sounds closest to a CD transport.

Then we have the playback software used, the very first version of TAS using Logitech Media Server as it's front end and squeezelite as it's backend, the second version of TAS using Logitech Media Server as it's front end, a squeezelite to ASIO bridge and our own developed ASIO player (XDPlayer) as it's back end. We now have XDMS being fully coded from the ground up and of course there's Roon. Then with Roon you also have the option to replace the endpoint software with Squeezelite or HQPlayer, which are options most server vendors offer nowadays. Of all of these the current XDMS alpha does sound closest to a CD transport but the upcoming XDMS "NSM" deviates by being "smoother" /less "choppy" then CD playback, even with the same 16/44.1 source file.

Another significant contributor is the interface used. Perhaps unsurprisingly SPDIF and AES/EBU sound closer to CD then USB/Ethernet, simply because you use the same interface. USB can be better but is subject to its implementation in both Server and DAC, IMHO to a much larger degree then AES/EBU / SPDIF.

The biggest "elephant in the room" however is the sheer amount of variables introduced in streaming / server based solutions. With a CD transport variables are largely limited to the AES/EBU or SPDIF interconnect, power cable (and power quality / filtering etc) and vibration control, aftermarket footers, racks, flooring etc. With servers this extends to your network, Wi-Fi and all devices connected to this. For example, especially when using Roon which is the most "sensitive" playback software to this particular variable, Image placement can vary, change positioning and/or diffuse because of network activity. This led us to design a full network setup solution including the recently released network card and switch, and the router with Wi-Fi shipping soon. With these in place imaging is rock solid and purity/clarity is significantly enhanced.

With all of this mentioned, I do have superior performance here over CD, assuming the same source file is used, mainly in the areas of sound staging (size), detail retrieval and instrument decay, and yes, wile using Roon. Without the Router/Switch you will need XDMS for this though.

A small addition, IMHO the upcoming upgrades, like the TACDA / TACDD interface and BPS elevate everything to previously uncharted territory, I'm aware this is a bold statement, but to my, and meanwhile a few other ears, perhaps not that bold, time and your impressions will tell.

Thank you for that very thorough consideration of this question, Emile! You, naturally, are speaking from the very top of the Extreme foodchain, and it sure sounds like the full "Taiko train" will change the game. I would love to also hear impressions from some of us who have both Extreme and high quality transports, too. Any others out there?

 

[Steve Williams]

welcome back Emile and for dropping today's pearl.......

A small addition, IMHO the upcoming upgrades, like the TACDA / TACDD interface and BPS elevate everything to previously uncharted territory, I'm aware this is a bold statement, but to my, and meanwhile a few other ears, perhaps not that bold, time and your impressions will tell.

 

[Backo NYC/SF]

Nice system and aesthetics! I am a sucker for symmetry

While the Daiza works very well with the Extreme, it is no longer in production and it is not used as part of any current developments at Taiko HQ.

Thanks Christiaan.
I only wish I’d gotten two more Daizas when I had the chance. They are/were a great product and a real value.

 

[John T]

I need some input: I'm not on discord because I wouldn't be of any help. A friend wanted to hear Roon/XDMS. Switching between the 2 has never been an issue. When I attempted, it kept sliding back to XDMS. Powered down the ipad and it then cooperated. Never had to do this before.

 

[Christiaan Punter]

I need some input: I'm not on discord because I wouldn't be of any help. A friend wanted to hear Roon/XDMS. Switching between the 2 has never been an issue. When I attempted, it kept sliding back to XDMS. Powered down the ipad and it then cooperated. Never had to do this before.

John, I emailed you just a moment ago.

 

[SK8]

CD transport versus music server:

The first and perhaps most obvious variance is in the masters, version or issue of the source medium. If I have a CD recording I want to compare I have to rip that particular CD first, as online streaming versions or digital downloads often sound different, they can sound similar, better or worse, the variation in this is unfortunately not subtle, but different CD issues of the same recording can sound different too.

Further to this I have to rip it to uncompressed .wav to the Extreme's local storage if the goal is to achieve a similar sound signature.Note this is not a declaration of superiority for the uncompressed .wav format as there are many factors in play here. Compressed flac files are smaller in absolute size which turns it into a file transfer versus decompression game with differing noise signatures depending on the construction / configuration of the server's hard- and soft-ware. With that said, uncompressed .wav from local storage sounds closest to a CD transport.

Then we have the playback software used, the very first version of TAS using Logitech Media Server as it's front end and squeezelite as it's backend, the second version of TAS using Logitech Media Server as it's front end, a squeezelite to ASIO bridge and our own developed ASIO player (XDPlayer) as it's back end. We now have XDMS being fully coded from the ground up and of course there's Roon. Then with Roon you also have the option to replace the endpoint software with Squeezelite or HQPlayer, which are options most server vendors offer nowadays. Of all of these the current XDMS alpha does sound closest to a CD transport but the upcoming XDMS "NSM" deviates by being "smoother" /less "choppy" then CD playback, even with the same 16/44.1 source file.

Another significant contributor is the interface used. Perhaps unsurprisingly SPDIF and AES/EBU sound closer to CD then USB/Ethernet, simply because you use the same interface. USB can be better but is subject to its implementation in both Server and DAC, IMHO to a much larger degree then AES/EBU / SPDIF.

The biggest "elephant in the room" however is the sheer amount of variables introduced in streaming / server based solutions. With a CD transport variables are largely limited to the AES/EBU or SPDIF interconnect, power cable (and power quality / filtering etc) and vibration control, aftermarket footers, racks, flooring etc. With servers this extends to your network, Wi-Fi and all devices connected to this. For example, especially when using Roon which is the most "sensitive" playback software to this particular variable, Image placement can vary, change positioning and/or diffuse because of network activity. This led us to design a full network setup solution including the recently released network card and switch, and the router with Wi-Fi shipping soon. With these in place imaging is rock solid and purity/clarity is significantly enhanced.

With all of this mentioned, I do have superior performance here over CD, assuming the same source file is used, mainly in the areas of sound staging (size), detail retrieval and instrument decay, and yes, wile using Roon. Without the Router/Switch you will need XDMS for this though.

A small addition, IMHO the upcoming upgrades, like the TACDA / TACDD interface and BPS elevate everything to previously uncharted territory, I'm aware this is a bold statement, but to my, and meanwhile a few other ears, perhaps not that bold, time and your impressions will tell.

Thanks for the great explanation. Just curious of what hardware/software you used to extract the WAV files to the Extreme local storage. Would that be some professional CD ripper like the Ediscreation Ultra Silent Ripper? Do you see differences of extracting the WAV files through the USB interface or SATA interface from the CD drive? Thanks.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Thanks for the great explanation. Just curious of what hardware/software you used to extract the WAV files to the Extreme local storage. Would that be some professional CD ripper like the Ediscreation Ultra Silent Ripper? Do you see differences of extracting the WAV files through the USB interface or SATA interface from the CD drive? Thanks.

I just use my laptop with dbpoweramp. Yes there are differences but I don't use cd rips beyond the once in a while check for differences between CD playback and streaming, aka I only use CD playback as a point of reference. My local library these days is 99% digital downloads. Back in the day though I spend a lot of time on getting the best possible rips and had an entire setup dedicated to just doing that. The best ever rig I had for that purpose booted into MS-DOS and I used a particular model SCSI Plextor CD drive with an Adaptec SCSI controller and ripped to a SCSI hard drive as well. I had to replace the CD drive every ~1000 rips as after that quality deteriorated, and actually select the best sounding drive as there were even variances in the same drive, so I tended to buy those in batches of 10 drives. I went through quite a few drives as when I made a discovery which led to a better sounding rip I tended to spend a full week re-ripping my entire library! Although it had it's charm I'm happy those days are over. I tend to not worry about this anymore as there are much larger gains to be made elsewhere, several of the XDMS back-end updates have individually made a larger difference for example.

 

[rando]

Is it possible in the future Taiko [internal alpha code] programs will begin to exhibit anywhere near that same level of focus to allow determining what the best version between local and streaming files is?

Meaning aware if a streamed version is different from the downloaded or ripped copies in ways that would allow making some high level determinations on quality before listening. Well established fact streamed files move around a lot and there is zero chance of notice being given if rights owner chooses to deliver a different mastering multiple times within a short period.

Your most recent post noted being detail oriented enough to capture the best (purchase download within window it is available) sounding copy to be archived locally. Weekly. Routine polling at time of loading file for playback with any changes detected given discrete notice in UI feasibly only happens on the order of months and years.