Stereophile and Magico

[FrantzM]

I think that having music sound exciting and involving at modest volumes does involve overall system frequency response headroom as you describe.

however; it's more than just that. I think it starts with how responsive the speaker is to the particular amplifiers first watt......how much micro-dynamic energy get launched, and then how effective the mid bass and lower (but not deep) bass is. do you get the transparent texture and 'jump-livelyness' in the 50hz-150hz range at these lower modest levels? that's where the ease and vividness comes from....since it's the hard frequency range for any speaker and where most of the distortion is.

this is a Magico thread and I'm no expert on Magico. maybe they do this too. that said, on my amp/speakers I can watch the RMS watts both peak and continuous in a read out on the front of my amps. and even at fairly vigorous levels of volume typically it's '0' to 7-8 watts. at low levels it's at '0' to 2-3 watts. I think part of it is so much driver surface in my -4- 11" woofers per side (30hz-250hz) and 96db, 6 ohm load to the amp. I don't hear that same modest level 'magic' in low efficiency speakers with mega amps no matter the amplifier. something gets missed.

system frequency response headroom and modest volume level realism are related but not the same thing.....in my experience.

Mike

What your view meters are showing and what your amplifiers are delivering may be quite different .. As i have told you I am not a first watter. This said.. I am with you on the modest lSPL level magic with high sensitivity speakers. I had a thread on this on WBF too lazy to search and resurrect it.

 

[microstrip]

You present opinions.. what are the facts?
I am of the opinion that regardless of the sensitivity involved you need powerful amplifier too so ..?

Frantz,

You must be joking ... Why I am supposed to present facts and you just opinions?

OK, let us have facts : http://www.firstwatt.com/. Sorry, but I am not going to transcribe the original Dick Olsher article.

And I am disappointed to find that your "synergy" is just that a powerful amplifier is needed and you do not feel that you must support it by any technical way. Just faith based on your experience, not technical facts ...

Surely the subjective synergy is based in technological aspects, sometimes difficult to express in a way that can be correlated with sound quality. The distortion spectra of a source depends strongly on load due to the input, and the sound quality will vary with it. This effect is much greater than just the minimal contribution of output source in frequency response or signal to noise ratio. However because it is difficult to interpret and quantify it is ignored.

 

[microstrip]

(...) As i have told you I am not a first watter. (...)

Can you tell us what you exactly mean by this expression? I think you are creating a confusion audiophile neologism ...

 

[microstrip]

(...) music benefits from efficiency with linearity and full frequency.

Surely. Just think about the transient thermal effects in semiconductors. If you play an amplifier hard the semiconductor cases will sing - it is known since long. Power supplies usually became noisier at high level.

 

[BlueFox]

Now getting back to the point I was trying to make. The better speaker tend to be truly loud before we realize that, The absence of distortion precluding us from realizing the SPL... it is not only from Magico but some other manufacturers as well.

This is basically what Alon told me when I took the S5 in for repair. He said use the SPL all the time to verify how loud it really is. Generally, I play string quartet and other chamber music in the 60-70 db range, and it sounds great. However, rock also sounds great at insane SPLs. The SPL makes sure I do not accidentally get out of the low 90s.

 

[FrantzM]

Can you tell us what you exactly mean by this expression? I think you are creating a confusion audiophile neologism ...

No

 

[FrantzM]

Frantz,

You must be joking ... Why I am supposed to present facts and you just opinions?

OK, let us have facts : http://www.firstwatt.com/. Sorry, but I am not going to transcribe the original Dick Olsher article.

And I am disappointed to find that your "synergy" is just that a powerful amplifier is needed and you do not feel that you must support it by any technical way. Just faith based on your experience, not technical facts ...

Surely the subjective synergy is based in technological aspects, sometimes difficult to express in a way that can be correlated with sound quality. The distortion spectra of a source depends strongly on load due to the input, and the sound quality will vary with it. This effect is much greater than just the minimal contribution of output source in frequency response or signal to noise ratio. However because it is difficult to interpret and quantify it is ignored.

You have REW? OK! I learned from another forum courtesy of Ray Dunzl... Measure the instantaneous output of a hand clap at one meter with REW ... Average with C-weighting SPL should be about 62~63 dB ... while Instantaneous will show peaks of up to 120 dB! Guess how much power will be needed to reproduce faithfully something as simple as that even on a very short time... Tom Danley posted such in the WBF, some time ago. It supports my view about powerful amplifiers. You use the term synergy. I don't , nor do I subscribe to the notion. As for your last point about the distortion spectra... show me the proof and its verified audibility. Else it is conjecture ...

Back to Magico speakers which I like a lot especially the Q3 but to my ears in term of tonality and linearity, the Q5 is superior. When I see someone poo-poohing those speakers calling them disco speakers, I have to wonder what in the world that audiophile is talking about .. then again under show conditions I don't care how good a system could potentially be, it can be screwed to Bose Wave Radio level...
I truly lilke the Q5, I simply don't cotton to its low sensitivity real number must be 82 dB/w/m .. Speaker sensitivity is something I either need to open a thread about or better microstrip, do me the favor, start it

 

[microstrip]

You have REW? OK! I learned from another forum courtesy of Ray Dunzl... Measure the instantaneous output of a hand clap at one meter with REW ... Average with C-weighting SPL should be about 62~63 dB ... while Instantaneous will show peaks of up to 120 dB! Guess how much power will be needed to reproduce faithfully something as simple as that even on a very short time... Tom Danley posted such in the WBF, some time ago. It supports my view about powerful amplifiers. You use the term synergy. I don't , nor do I subscribe to the notion. As for your last point about the distortion spectra... show me the proof and its verified audibility. Else it is conjecture ... (...)

This argument is meaningless - we are reproducing a source with a defined headroom. We are not addressing a live PA system. Particularly with digital the maximum output is close to 0 dB, although there is a special case where a little extra dB are needed in the analog at high frequencies - it was studied long ago. The problem you refer really existed in analog LPs due to the clicks and pops - it was solved with extra headroom in the low level section. Once you set a gain in the chain you can foresee the maximum peak voltage needed at your amplifier. I have measured it several times using meters at CD recordings peak levels long ago - I used an old Technics CD player that has a very interesting function to help setting recording levels when taping CDs - it searches for peak level and then reproduces indefinitely the 10 seconds around this point. My chain is absolute gain calibrated - I know what is the maximum voltage peak level at any setting of my preamplifier when reproducing digital.

For the distortion spectra take any amplifier review showing distortion with different powers and loads - all Paul Miller reviews of amplifiers carried for HifiNews have these measurements. Or the measurents of preamplifier distortion versus level, loaded at 600, 10k and 100k. Sorry but I am giving facts, you give conjecture ...

IMHO more powerful amplifiers may sound better in some cases - but for secondary reasons related to their power, not directly because they are powerful at 8 ohms, the official specified power rating. Krell always assumed that their more powerful amplifiers sounded better than the lower power ones in the same family and Dan Agostino explained why. Mike Lavigne will probably happily explain you why his NH458 DartZeel sounds better than my NH108B. But for example IMHO the Audio Research REF 150 has a more refined sound than the REF750 if the extra power is not needed. And in general I feel that monoblocks sound better than stereo amplifiers.

 

[microstrip]

View attachment 27134

(...) Back to Magico speakers which I like a lot especially the Q3 but to my ears in term of tonality and linearity, the Q5 is superior. When I see someone poo-poohing those speakers calling them disco speakers, I have to wonder what in the world that audiophile is talking about .. then again under show conditions I don't care how good a system could potentially be, it can be screwed to Bose Wave Radio level...
I truly lilke the Q5, I simply don't cotton to its low sensitivity real number must be 82 dB/w/m .. Speaker sensitivity is something I either need to open a thread about or better microstrip, do me the favor, start it

IMHO sometimes we give to much thought to other individual opinions and build entire novels on them. I could easily understand what was meant by the disco comment - just an a way of expressing an opinion about a speaker performance, nothing else. And yes we agree on show conditions. It is why I just read or care about the positive comments and aspects of shows exhibits - there are thousands of reasons for a possible negative, but a few correlated positive opinions can be a good hint.

 

[mcduman]

. When I see someone poo-poohing those speakers calling them disco speakers, I have to wonder what in the world that audiophile is talking about .. then again under show conditions I don't care how good a system could potentially be, it can be screwed to Bose Wave Radio level...
I truly lilke the Q5, I simply don't cotton to its low sensitivity real number must be 82 dB/w/m .. Speaker sensitivity is something I either need to open a thread about or better microstrip, do me the favor, start it

frantz,

i called the s5 (and not the q5) discotheque speakers, which they are. the q5 is really very ok and i have a huge respect for the q series.

and it is OK too if somebody wants to reproduce a high-SPL environment in their homes, just like it is OK when when we want to create a movie theater experience. i did not mean to offend anybody, esp fellow magico owners

 

[FrantzM]

View attachment 27134

IMHO sometimes we give to much thought to other individual opinions and build entire novels on them. I could easily understand what was meant by the disco comment - just an a way of expressing an opinion about a speaker performance, nothing else. And yes we agree on show conditions. It is why I just read or care about the positive comments and aspects of shows exhibits - there are thousands of reasons for a possible negative, but a few correlated positive opinions can be a good hint.

Ok microstrip... He said something. I disagreed ... Do you agree with the comments re the Magico speakers or not ? ANd what correlation are you talking about?I'll drop it , it is a bout Magico spekaers and Stereophile coverage or lack thereof ... Back to the original discussion, you can a always open threads on the various O.T. we touched.

 

[fas42]

Regarding power of amplifiers needed to get subjectively satisfying results from particular speakers, all my experience says that it's the ability of the amplifiers to deliver to the limits of their voltage rails cleanly that counts - my original "powerhouse" Perreaux had issues, obviously couldn't go beyond a certain power delivery without introducing treble distortion; yet it was quite superior to some other monster amplifiers back then that I played with, got loans of, etc, in its ability to reproduce dynamics.

Since then I have dropped back to amps in the range of 15 to 60 watts or so, and these can be coaxed into driving very average efficiency speakers highly effectively - the key thing to watch out for is to not ask such amplifiers to deliver ultra low bass notes, and since I don't worry about such, all is fine!

The beautiful thing about getting the electronics side of things into good shape is that the subjective impact stays constant, irrespective of volume level! Even at really low background SPLs the music has a vitality and life to it which makes it a pleasure to experience; it completely takes away the desire to wind it up, to make magic happen, because the good stuff is there all the time ...

 

[FrantzM]

This argument is meaningless - we are reproducing a source with a defined headroom. We are not addressing a live PA system. Particularly with digital the maximum output is close to 0 dB, although there is a special case where a little extra dB are needed in the analog at high frequencies - it was studied long ago. The problem you refer really existed in analog LPs due to the clicks and pops - it was solved with extra headroom in the low level section. Once you set a gain in the chain you can foresee the maximum peak voltage needed at your amplifier. I have measured it several times using meters at CD recordings peak levels long ago - I used an old Technics CD player that has a very interesting function to help setting recording levels when taping CDs - it searches for peak level and then reproduces indefinitely the 10 seconds around this point. My chain is absolute gain calibrated - I know what is the maximum voltage peak level at any setting of my preamplifier when reproducing digital.

For the distortion spectra take any amplifier review showing distortion with different powers and loads - all Paul Miller reviews of amplifiers carried for HifiNews have these measurements. Or the measurents of preamplifier distortion versus level, loaded at 600, 10k and 100k. Sorry but I am giving facts, you give conjecture ...

IMHO more powerful amplifiers may sound better in some cases - but for secondary reasons related to their power, not directly because they are powerful at 8 ohms, the official specified power rating. Krell always assumed that their more powerful amplifiers sounded better than the lower power ones in the same family and Dan Agostino explained why. Mike Lavigne will probably happily explain you why his NH458 DartZeel sounds better than my NH108B. But for example IMHO the Audio Research REF 150 has a more refined sound than the REF750 if the extra power is not needed. And in general I feel that monoblocks sound better than stereo amplifiers.

Obfuscations. The point I made was that only an amplifier capable of a large amount of power will be better able to reproduce the instantaneous peaks or something resembling this more closely... while the average draw may be modest... Mike current amps are capable of rather serious power and Dan D'Agostino never sold flea-flickers even his 50 watts amplifiers the KSA-50 were capable of serious peak power so what is your point or are you trying to make mine, actually Tom Danley's? ENd of the regular bout between ourselves . Let's leave some peace for Magico centric discussion, I am a fan and you're an owner .. so more Magico ink/bits

 

[BlueFox]

frantz,

i called the s5 (and not the q5) discotheque speakers, which they are. the q5 is really very ok and i have a huge respect for the q series.

LOL. Nice try. I bet Magico is grateful for your approval.

 

[mcduman]

LOL. Nice try. I bet Magico is grateful for your approval.

i hope they are. we have another audiophile in the house, a potential client

 

[andromedaaudio]

M 5 ...heavily overrated imo

Regarding the first watt discussion .
Most people are not able to know what M lavigne is talking about in the first place i think .
He has a large bandwith system with a lot of membrane surface which will / or is capable off producing an ease that you cant compare with someone who is listening to pair of mini monitors .
Besides that he has al the other requirements of good sound built up to a very high standard , room/ amps /sources / vibration control etc .... , if you have that things that you werent aware off suddenly become obvious and important

 

[microstrip]

Obfuscations. The point I made was that only an amplifier capable of a large amount of power will be better able to reproduce the instantaneous peaks or something resembling this more closely... while the average draw may be modest... Mike current amps are capable of rather serious power and Dan D'Agostino never sold flea-flickers even his 50 watts amplifiers the KSA-50 were capable of serious peak power so what is your point or are you trying to make mine, actually Tom Danley's? ENd of the regular bout between ourselves . Let's leave some peace for Magico centric discussion, I am a fan and you're an owner .. so more Magico ink/bits

Obfuscation? Unfortunately it is not possible to debate such concepts without the basics. Power is current and voltage - unless you expect to explain sound quality just by amplifier weight. And then we have a problem as Europe theoretically needs 20% more weight ...

BTW the Tom Danley you refer is the manufacturer of speakers and subwoofers for PROFESSIONAL ATHLETIC STADIUM PROJECTS and COLLEGIATE PROJECTS?

I have owned and repaired a KSA-50. Facts - it was not a 50 watt amplifier, it was much more powerful in class AB. Its distortion spectra versus power made it sound louder than we could expect. Its power supply was over-dimensioned, because of the class A bias. I have had it back in my system a few years ago and it lacked detail compared to modern amplifiers. For my taste it needed the coloration of the good old Audio Research SP8 or SP10 to sound alive.

But OK back to Magico magic ... I hope to get an invitation next week to listen to a system including the M-Pro.

 

[microstrip]

M 5 ...heavily overrated imo

Regarding the first watt discussion .
Most people are not able to know what M lavigne is talking about in the first place i think .
He has a large bandwith system with a lot of membrane surface which will / or is capable off producing an ease that you cant compare with someone who is listening to pair of mini monitors .
Besides that he has al the other requirements of good sound built up to a very high standard , room/ amps /sources / vibration control etc .... , if you have that things that you werent aware off suddenly become obvious and important

Both good points. But the M5 also needed a lot of power - I listened to it sounding great with the NH458 and peaks were around 1000 W. At a certain moment it blew a mid-range unit ...

And your point on large area is very relevant. The way the speaker drives the room makes you more sensitive to certain aspects of the electronics.

 

[microstrip]

i hope they are. we have another audiophile in the house, a potential client
View attachment 27135

I have considered such system and I feared the ARC would not be powerful enough. Can I ask you what is the preamplifier and source?

 

[FrantzM]

Obfuscation? Unfortunately it is not possible to debate such concepts without the basics. Power is current and voltage - unless you expect to explain sound quality just by amplifier weight. And then we have a problem as Europe theoretically needs 20% more weight ...

BTW the Tom Danley you refer is the manufacturer of speakers and subwoofers for PROFESSIONAL ATHLETIC STADIUM PROJECTS and COLLEGIATE PROJECTS?

I have owned and repaired a KSA-50. Facts - it was not a 50 watt amplifier, it was much more powerful in class AB. Its distortion spectra versus power made it sound louder than we could expect. Its power supply was over-dimensioned, because of the class A bias. I have had it back in my system a few years ago and it lacked detail compared to modern amplifiers. For my taste it needed the coloration of the good old Audio Research SP8 or SP10 to sound alive.

But OK back to Magico magic ... I hope to get an invitation next week to listen to a system including the M-Pro.

I think you should show a little more respect to people like Tom Danley. His contributions to Audio reproduction and his numerous patents have been real and far reaching. Light years away from what many including you have ... This said I'll bow out .. No need to pollute the Magico thread any more.