Speaker Oasis...Bionor

[D.Duttilleux]

Marcel , Would you prefer an original example of either of these vintage transducers … or a rather expensive modern attempt at a replica of the former?

If it were up to me, I would clone this system (using 4x 10s):

then mount a fully enclosed horn in the middle (coax), by which:
- acoustic centers can be aligned
- a point source is approximated
- the mid/high horn doubles up as phase plug > guides the wave front along the walls.

A compact 3" driver like the 18Sound ND3N fits between the woofers, can be crossed at 800Hz and plays up to 20 kHz without breakup.

 

[bonzo75]

basically the setup we listened to at BAM! a few years ago, the sound is very organic yet IMHO lacks a little detail in the mid range, or rather the detail is a tad 'granular'

edit; it could even be the very same units.

great speaker, but it needs loads of space.

Stock panels will each have a number printed on them.

more at www.klangfilm.org

if those speakers were from the Peter in Germany, then yes they would be the same.

the wood baffles are the same from 50s but have been reveneered by Peter.

the owner is running it with all top Kondo gear, continuum, Schroeder LT, MSL, Studer c37 so there is no lack of detail.

 

[MarcelNL]

those are indeed the very same pieces!

Have fun, sounds like you're having a blast, or will have one!

 

[MarcelNL]

If it were up to me, I would clone this system (using 4x 10s):
View attachment 125918
then mount a fully enclosed horn in the middle (coax), by which:
- acoustic centers can be aligned
- a point source is approximated
- the mid/high horn doubles up as phase plug > guides the wave front along the walls.

A compact 3" driver like the 18Sound ND3N fits between the woofers, can be crossed at 800Hz and plays up to 20 kHz without breakup.

yeah I toyed with that idea, but it was too deep for our current living room so I will build a Trionor adaptation of the Bionor. But for the exact horn curve but that should be cleared soon.

 

[bonzo75]

yeah I toyed with that idea, but it was too deep for our current living room so I will build a Trionor adaptation of the Bionor. But for the exact horn curve but that should be cleared soon.

How big is your room

 

[MarcelNL]

It's not the room size, but the depth of the wall at the side of the windows. It'll fit the Bionor Horn without the throat adapter piece. The Euronor Junior would stick out and partially block the door to the garden.

 

[D.Duttilleux]

If it were up to me, I would clone this system (using 4x 10s):
View attachment 125918

This is basically a waveguide-loaded baffle. Because of the size It'll crush most regular OB systems wrt radiation homogenity.
As a bonus you can use some of the cheapest woofers available. In fact, most pro woofers are suboptimal or useless for a 2 way configuration. Provided the suspension is fairly stiff, you want a 1-2 dB hump at the low end when simulated in an IB. This hump is then leveled by the boost provided by the waveguide, from around 100 Hz. Moreover, in this configuration you don't need (or even want) a curved cone, because of the small size and low xo-point, way before breakup occurs. Those cheap woofers tend to sound very nice - much better than 80% of the high-end (pro) woofers - when used for hifi, as JMLC rightly pointed out long ago. High-end magnet structures (let alone FC) are also unnecessary, as Xmax is limited to approximately 3mm. VC inductance generally varies between 0.2 and 0.4, with exceptions up to 1 mH. Because we're not dealing with true/full hornloading, the strain put on the drivers is limited.

A small comparison:

Klangfilm/Kurt Müller:



Supravox:




Cheap woofers:

 

[MarcelNL]

most open baffle systems are in fact NO baffle systems, with enormous quantities of acoustic feedback.

I've used two 12"FR units per channel in an in wall mounted 'Breitstrahlgruppe", the room behind the wall acted as chamber, worked beatifully. Only drawback is that in the current house I'd have to get the neighbours to agree to having the magnets in their house ;-)

 

[christoph]

If it were up to me, I would clone this system (using 4x 10s):
View attachment 125918
then mount a fully enclosed horn in the middle (coax), by which:
- acoustic centers can be aligned
- a point source is approximated
- the mid/high horn doubles up as phase plug > guides the wave front along the walls.

A compact 3" driver like the 18Sound ND3N fits between the woofers, can be crossed at 800Hz and plays up to 20 kHz without breakup.

That plan sounds VERY interesting/promising

 

[bonzo75]

The Schroeder BA with the Miyajima infinity is amazing with mono records. Had heard the Schroeder BA Miya zero combo at Oma first. It is a Unipivot with no horizontal compliance and very heavy and sounds great with the mono cart on mono records.

 

[MarcelNL]

The Infinity is a great cartridge, we recently compared the Zero and the Infinity....I have the Zero but may want both...

 

[bonzo75]

It's not the room size, but the depth of the wall at the side of the windows. It'll fit the Bionor Horn without the throat adapter piece. The Euronor Junior would stick out and partially block the door to the garden.

why don’t you just play with one speaker, or move out of klangfilm into another driver that lets you make a smaller size

 

[MarcelNL]

haha, I did play with one prototype in the -in between- house for a year.
I am going to build a Bionor like design with three 13"full range units per channel and that will fit with some squeeze and alterations.

 

[D.Duttilleux]

most open baffle systems are in fact NO baffle systems, with enormous quantities of acoustic feedback.

I've used two 12"FR units per channel in an in wall mounted 'Breitstrahlgruppe", the room behind the wall acted as chamber, worked beatifully. Only drawback is that in the current house I'd have to get the neighbours to agree to having the magnets in their house ;-)

There are several ways to tackle the compromises of almost any system (which is by definition compromised).
I can see the charms/merits of full range drivers. However, the last time I listened to 3 different implementations in a row of (expensive) Voxativ drivers, the shortcomings they exhibit were too obvious and too much of a compomise for my taste. I'm curious about some Lii drivers though.
The same applies to most multi-way speakers > they usually lack coherence. I'm not fond of seperate subs either, because they are very difficult to integrate > there are a few Norwegian diy-ers who know how to do this properly.

At shows it usually takes a few seconds to determine whether a system has potential. I tend to skip about 80% of the rooms, because as you pass by you hear exactly what you expect. Some so-called high-end systems with speakers costing 80-300k sound more than embarrassingly bad.

 

[MarcelNL]

plenty of FrRunits are quite horrible indeed, including high $$ new units.

I've used the units I'll be using for three years of which over a year in the planned setup and they can compete with the VAC KL 405 units. (my best friend is using 4 VAC KL405 in massive open baffles). It was the comparison between that prototype and the Euronor Junior that made me comment on the midrange granularity earlier.

Separate subs are indeed very hard to integrate in time and space, no go for me.

Shows....yes...I skip 80-90% of all rooms and some of the highest%% are worst IMHO. Sometimes it feels as a 'draaideurcrimineel' entering a room and immediately leaving ;-)

Hope to hear Silbatone next May, if it comes to getting to Munich. If you plan on going lets meet, either in NL or in Munich (I usually attend the business visitors Friday). As mentioned my attendance is not sure yet.

 

[DasguteOhr]

plenty of FrRunits are quite horrible indeed, including high $$ new units.

I've used the units I'll be using for three years of which over a year in the planned setup and they can compete with the VAC KL 405 units. (my best friend is using 4 VAC KL405 in massive open baffles). It was the comparison between that prototype and the Euronor Junior that made me comment on the midrange granularity earlier.

Separate subs are indeed very hard to integrate in time and space, no go for me.

Shows....yes...I skip 80-90% of all rooms and some of the highest%% are worst IMHO. Sometimes it feels as a 'draaideurcrimineel' entering a room and immediately leaving ;-)

Hope to hear Silbatone next May, if it comes to getting to Munich. If you plan on going lets meet, either in NL or in Munich (I usually attend the business visitors Friday). As mentioned my attendance is not sure, due to a serious health issue at home.

Open baffles only work well as dipoles in bass. Low room mode excitation, fast impulse processing under 5 ms until calming down. a H-frame dipole sub can be easily accommodated in the baffle and combined with a horn. good 30hz with 2(3)×15"woofers ~100db/1watt
Exsample

 

[D.Duttilleux]

That plan sounds VERY interesting/promising

Perhaps this comment was intended (somewhat) ironically, but: indeed, that concept not only sounds promising, but will actually do so.
Why? Because it's simple.

Btw, this is your system I assume? Are the midrange horns of the Mummies finished in Nextel?

Stunning view!

The latest Avantgarde Trio is an example of a multiple horn system in which integration of the channels has been worked out pretty well.
Naturally, such a system requires some distance to sound homogeneous, but I could hardly perceive any weak spots (during the usual tricks to detect flaws in radiation).

 

[Lagonda]

Bionor are yesterday’s story and have been sold. Now listening to the Euronor Jr.

View attachment 125890

If that is the J.r. what does the Senior look like ? By the way, your fly is open Ked !

 

[MarcelNL]

click on the EURONOR www.klangfilm.org ....which IRL is about 3 meters high

 

[christoph]

Perhaps this comment was intended (somewhat) ironically, but: indeed, that concept not only sounds promising, but will actually do so.
Why? Because it's simple.

No, I really think that concept can succeed!

Btw, this is your system I assume? Are the midrange horns of the Mummies finished in Nextel? View attachment 125998

Stunning view!

Yes, my system and the midrange of my Universums is finished with structured, matte paint, while the tweeter is high gloss.

Lukasz Lewandowski advised me to have it that way because according to him this sounds better.