Speaker Oasis...Bionor

[fas42]

I like the phrase "transports you to the venue." I have heard and owned some speakers that reportedly do this but in actual fact all they do is create the venue behind the speaker plane. As such, they give you a window on the venue but you as a listener are not in the venue.

The analogy I've used is that the room you're in is detached and moved holus-bolus to the spot where the recording was made, and attached at the point of the speaker plane; your listening area becomes an extension to the recording "stage". As such how the overall sound comes across to you will depend in part on the acoustic behaviour of your room; if I don't feel I'm part of the venue, and want to be, I would just turn up the volume until the reaction of my room to the sound energy did the job; a competent system should have no trouble creating sufficient SPLs.

 

[KeithR]

the big component that goes missing in the "can i drive X speaker with Y amp" is the distortion created. its pretty easy to see from measurements where optimal speakers and SETs or P/P amps should be run. unfortunately, folks focus on clipping - but the amp distorts way before that point as there is no headroom.

there is an effortless sound to SET on high efficiency speakers that you have to own/hear to understand. its the entire point of the setup.

and ftw, I tend to prefer P/P amps to SET amps so have no beef in this argument. as Nelson Pass has written about, many people prefer 3rd order distortion and I guess I'm one of them.

 

[Steve Williams]

It's just like another thread I saw here some time ago. A guy was asking if he could drive his Thiel CS3.7s with SETs successfully. The "experts" chimed in, including "top" reviewers, that no way would this work. Well, I can tell you that it works and works beautifully. A friend of mine has this speaker and he originally had McIntosh MC501 monos. After hearing that tubes sound better, he switched to Octave Push/pull monos. Then he heard a VAC 30/30 on his Thiels and convinced that a push/pull Class A 300B with no feedback amp was superior (it was and by a wide margin). THEN he heard SET amps on his speakers and that is what he has now. Guess what? It sounds great, has great bass and plays as loud as you would want (my friend listens quite loud actually) without obvious strain or compression...even with bass heavy material. The word on the street is that this speaker "needs" big power because it has a lowish impedance, needs bass control (as if power and bass control have much to do with each other) etc. Well, it's bull.

People said the same thing about the big Wilsons...but if you look at the actual measurements they don't need high power at all. THe original X1 was 95db and an easy load. It has a 15 inch woofer but in a well damped alignment and it works perfectly with a 30 watt KR VA350i. The smallish Watt/puppy might but even it is well over 90db/watt. It does have some nasty impedance in places that make it not suitable for all tubes.

My Lamm ML3 (30 wpc SET) drives my big Wilson X2's with such ease that these amps have become lifers

 

[microstrip]

A good reason why is it's one of the closest approximations to a point source horn, which is (IMO) the definition of ideal for music reproduction. The big deal with Danley Synergy is the way it presents the music. If you haven't heard a good point source horn speaker (most have not) expect to hear the best soundstaging/imaging you've ever experienced, a speaker like this transports you to the venue. The compromises are the midrange ports into the sides of the horn and the overall profile of the horn will cause more diffraction than is ideal and there will be some unevenness in the frequency response. The FR could be tuned to be more even with the crossover but this isn't done because cost and application do not require it (info right from Danley).

Red Spade audio has a version that might be better suited for home applications:

http://www.redspade.com.au/audio/PSE-144.php

However, for home use I believe there is a better, simpler way to accomplish a similar objective, and that's the speaker I'll be releasing soon. It has no ports in the side of the horn, uses a LeCleach profile for less diffraction, and the midrange horn covers from 400 - 15000 Hz, which results in it sounding like a point source even with nearfield listening. Also, frequency response is more even in the critical midrange. It uses a Fostex T500AMkII super tweeter, the mid and tweeter as a unit are about 105 dB efficient and they have only a single cap for xo on the mid and tweeter, so very SET friendly... bass is active with 32/384 DSP and NC500 amps. Downside is it can't achieve the SPLs of a Danley but it can hit 120 dB at the LP as a stereo pair, which is more than enough for anyone and any style of music. I expect this speaker to be better than similar-looking speakers from Avantgarde, Odeon or Cessaro.

Thanks. What should we expect to be main differences between say, an Avant Garde Solo and the Danley in soundstage/imaging?

 

[fas42]

the big component that goes missing in the "can i drive X speaker with Y amp" is the distortion created. its pretty easy to see from measurements where optimal speakers and SETs or P/P amps should be run. unfortunately, folks focus on clipping - but the amp distorts way before that point as there is no headroom.

there is an effortless sound to SET on high efficiency speakers that you have to own/hear to understand. its the entire point of the setup.

Yes, the sound being effortless is the point - high efficiency speakers should be a good road to go down, if all is in order - it's amusing when playing an orchestral piece at decent volume, and seeing people start to cringe when they know a big climax is coming - this is going to be terrible!!, they're thinking ... but it comes, and the sound just rolls over the top of them with complete ease, no bits of skin can be found on the floor, .

This is how it should be, all the time ...

 

[ddk]

Yes, the sound being effortless is the point - high efficiency speakers should be a good road to go down, if all is in order - it's amusing when playing an orchestral piece at decent volume, and seeing people start to cringe when they know a big climax is coming - this is going to be terrible!!, they're thinking ... but it comes, and the sound just rolls over the top of them with complete ease, no bits of skin can be found on the floor, .

This is how it should be, all the time ...

That's it Frank!!

david

 

[bonzo75]

Yes, the sound being effortless is the point - high efficiency speakers should be a good road to go down, if all is in order - it's amusing when playing an orchestral piece at decent volume, and seeing people start to cringe when they know a big climax is coming - this is going to be terrible!!, they're thinking ... but it comes, and the sound just rolls over the top of them with complete ease, no bits of skin can be found on the floor, .

This is how it should be, all the time ...

That's more
a room factor. You will see it happen better in Marty's room because of the room itself.

It also happens with the right DSP

In fact, many high efficiency horns can get shouty during such transitions because their drivers are mis matched, when one gets loud the other doesn't as easily, so actually, I would disagree with the above

 

[fas42]

That's not a room factor. You will see it happen better in Marty's room because of the room itself.

It also happens with the right DSP

In fact, many high efficiency horns can get shouty during such transitions because their drivers are mis matched, when one gets loud the other doesn't as easily, so actually, I would disagree with the above

I agree it's not a room factor - in fact, for me, it's a marker for the competence of the overall system, the full reproduction chain. DSP may help to allow that chain to work at an optimum, so that element definitely could be beneficial.

I can't speak for high efficiency horns from personal experience; my approach is using highly conventional dynamic driver boxes, of average efficiency - the angle is, that I make sure the electronics are all performing to their full potential; this is the "secret ingredient" that gets me to that level of performance ...

 

[bonzo75]

Sorry I meant it's more a room factor, not not a room factor. Autocorrect changed more to not

 

[fas42]

So we're even more in disagreement, ! My experience is that when the system is sufficiently 'debugged', then our clever brains can sort out all the fine detail produced by the drivers, irrespective of the room, and make sense of it all ... including the complexity and tumultuous onslaught of an orchestral crescendo. This is marvellous to experience, but can only happen satisfactorily if every part of the rig plays its part to an exemplary standard - a slight failing somewhere can shatter the illusion, and IME the room is not a key player in this.

 

[bonzo75]

Our clever brains can sort out a lot of anomalies does not mean they don't exist.

 

[morricab]

Big Wilson's need a lot of control to move those woofers. Otherwise those drivers are sluggish

Nonsense

 

[morricab]

Brad you are a master of convenient mis-interpretation in order to support your own arguments, or points you wish to assume you have greater knowledge on IMHO.

Sorry, what misinterpretation are you referring to? Be specific as I have been. If you want examples of big woofer senstivity vs. small woofer sensitivity within a given line of drivers I can easily provide.

 

[morricab]

Nah. My parallel push-pull triode amps (15 W/ch) can easily and with great dynamics drive my 92 dB sensitive monitors, but they were 'dying' on 96 dB Goldmund speakers with large woofers.

Do you have measured proof that the Goldmunds were really 96db? A lot of companies "stretch" the truth in this regard. Also, what was the impedance? This matters a lot for a tube amp.

 

[bonzo75]

Nonsense

You should try to hear some then - I have heard the X2S2 with Lamm ML3 and Dan Agostino Momentums (different rooms) and the XLF with Spectral DMA 400 and VTL s400 (same room). Sonics (tone etc) aside, the difference in driver movement and speed is quite clear.

 

[bonzo75]

With AG Trios + BH as well, in the same room and system, the 9w 300b audionote integrated was not able to control them at all as compared to the 9w 300b Airtight integrated, and the powerful class A SS AG amps

 

[morricab]

Nah. My parallel push-pull triode amps (15 W/ch) can easily and with great dynamics drive my 92 dB sensitive monitors, but they were 'dying' on 96 dB Goldmund speakers with large woofers.

Which model Goldmund. The Epilogue 2 has a sensitivity of 89.5db/watt. Quite a lot different from 96db. Also, the vented box can be an issue depending on the tuning.

EPILOGUE 1:
Efficiency: 89.5 dB

Epilogue 1+2
Efficiency: 89.5 dB


So, which model has a claimed 96db? The ones I found are all the same at 89.5db.

 

[bonzo75]

So we're even more in disagreement, ! My experience is that when the system is sufficiently 'debugged', then our clever brains can sort out all the fine detail produced by the drivers, irrespective of the room, and make sense of it all ... including the complexity and tumultuous onslaught of an orchestral crescendo. This is marvellous to experience, but can only happen satisfactorily if every part of the rig plays its part to an exemplary standard - a slight failing somewhere can shatter the illusion, and IME the room is not a key player in this.

If you read this post, it quotes my exact question on the orchestral crescendoes and Marty's explain

 

[morricab]

My Lamm ML3 (30 wpc SET) drives my big Wilson X2's with such ease that these amps have become lifers

Yes, my KR VA350i (30 watt SET) drove the X1 MKI and MKIII beautifully and with the MKIII in a large room.

 

[morricab]

You should try to hear some then - I have heard the X2S2 with Lamm ML3 and Dan Agostino Momentums (different rooms) and the XLF with Spectral DMA 400 and VTL s400 (same room). Sonics (tone etc) aside, the difference in driver movement and speed is quite clear.

I have heard the X1 MK I, X1 MK III with KR VA350i and it was simply awesome. Also, the Grand Utopia BE EM (94db but a bit tougher load) blew the doors off a pair of Electrocompaniet Nemos. Overdamping can create the sense of speed you are describing and it doesn't mean the bass is better or that the tubes have made the sound sluggish. THey are most likely the more natural and accurate bass. Wilsons have pretty well damped loading for vented designs and don't need a very high damping factor amp. It makes them sound overdamped...btw. that is the same for Apogees. I have also heard the X2 with Lamms at a show and it was superb.