Sonorous ATR10 MMK II

[Philip O Hanlon]

It's only taken twelve years, but SonorouS have finally released the MK II version of their tube playback tape deck. Arian lent us an MK I deck, but with the MK II improved electronics for T.H.E. Show in Costa Mesa, I like the choice of winding speeds; Library Wind for proper tape storage is useful. I also liked the motor-assisted Fast Braking capability for easy searching. I also liked the digital counter, as the tapes I received did not have leader tape on them and I used the zero indicator, to show me where the beginning of the tape was. Price $32,500 - lead time, around 3 months. I will post some videos shortly. Cheers, Philip

 

[Lee]

That looks amazing. Bet it sounds amazing too!

 

[Philip O Hanlon]

That looks amazing. Bet it sounds amazing too!

I shot a few videos. As did Ron Resnick; I wonder what happened to his videos ?

 

[Ron Resnick]

I shot a few videos. As did Ron Resnick; I wonder what happened to his videos ?

 

[Ron Resnick]

 

[Philip O Hanlon]

Thanks Ron

 

[Philip O Hanlon]

I should comment that we used a SonorouS ATR10 with the MK II electronics, but the MK I chassis.

 

[Ampexed]

Shame it isn't 15ips and 30ips. Quality is far better at 30, with greater transient faithfulness, wider frequency response, and lower noise. Don't know how many 30ips tapes are available currently, but it seems that should be a priority for record companies - if they're going to bother to do the best, why not go for the very best. The increase in tape cost is trivial at this level.

 

[Foxbat]

This is a boutique market as it is, at 15ips. 30ips machines are not too common.

 

[Ampexed]

My point was that at this level of investment 30 ips should be available. The improvement is not subtle. If I'm not mistaken the running masters used by Acoustic Sounds and other companies to make tape copies are already at 30 inches per second.

 

[Lee]

My point was that at this level of investment 30 ips should be available. The improvement is not subtle. If I'm not mistaken the running masters used by Acoustic Sounds and other companies to make tape copies are already at 30 inches per second.

But how many tapes can you buy at 30 ips? That has to be a very limited number of albums.

 

[Ampexed]

But how many tapes can you buy at 30 ips? That has to be a very limited number of albums.

Oh yes, right now it's very limited. But the reason I posted in the first place was more of an appeal to perhaps push record companies towards using that speed and for tape machine manufacturers to adopt it. For the record companies it's really just a matter of another real of tape just that simple. Of course it would cost more but it doesn't have to cost significantly more because it's just more tape.

I've used 30 IPS for decades in recording studios and in my own work and one of my machines in my studio runs at 30 IPS.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

i have some 30ips work parts in my collection. yes, they can sound amazing. my Studer A-820's i owned, and my current ATR-102's can do 30ips all day long. but 30ips has some limitations.

----mechanically the broadcast/prosumer level decks such as the Sonorous, UHA, and others don't have the stoutness to be solid at 30ips. none of the new tape decks being built are being built to master recorder standards. it takes Master Recorder level of build and transport engineering to be heavy duty enough.

----mechanically it's more prone to noise. tape transports have many moving parts. to get low mechanical noise from 30 ips is a much bigger challenge for design. and to hold up with constant use at 30ips. it's why master recorders are big heavy monsters with fans for cooling and that they require more maintenance. and ageing master recorders might be fine at 15ips, but show their weaknesses at 30ips.

----the EQ is different for 30ips. many/most custom tape repro's don't have 30ips settings.

-----cost of tape. it's double. and play times are half per reel. a big turn off.

----higher labor cost to dub. double. very significant.

-----most master tapes are not 30ips, even when the work parts are. so dubbing to 30ips is not sensible.

----bass response not as good at 30ips.

-----no market. it would take a leap of faith for a rights holder/label to offer 30ips. $1000 per title for 4 reels. ouch!

there is a possibility that since the companies that sell tape titles have to make them one at a time, that asking for a 30ips version might be worth doing. there would be extra cost in a them having to do a custom set-up but if their source happens to be 30ips, then you may find a few willing sources for them. if you do let is know.

 

[Ampexed]

i have some 30ips work parts in my collection. yes, they can sound amazing. my Studer A-820's i owned, and my current ATR-102's can do 30ips all day long. but 30ips has some limitations.

----mechanically the broadcast/prosumer level decks such as the Sonorous, UHA, and others don't have the stoutness to be solid at 30ips. none of the new tape decks being built are being built to master recorder standards. it takes Master Recorder level of build and transport engineering to be heavy duty enough.

----mechanically it's more prone to noise. tape transports have many moving parts. to get low mechanical noise from 30 ips is a much bigger challenge for design. and to hold up with constant use at 30ips. it's why master recorders are big heavy monsters with fans for cooling and that they require more maintenance. and ageing master recorders might be fine at 15ips, but show their weaknesses at 30ips.

----the EQ is different for 30ips. many/most custom tape repro's don't have 30ips settings.

-----cost of tape. it's double. and play times are half per reel. a big turn off.

----higher labor cost to dub. double. very significant.

-----most master tapes are not 30ips, even when the work parts are. so dubbing to 30ips is not sensible.

----bass response not as good at 30ips.

-----no market. it would take a leap of faith for a rights holder/label to offer 30ips. $1000 per title for 4 reels. ouch!

there is a possibility that since the companies that sell tape titles have to make them one at a time, that asking for a 30ips version might be worth doing. there would be extra cost in a them having to do a custom set-up but if their source happens to be 30ips, then you may find a few willing sources for them. if you do let is know.

Like I mentioned previously, the work parts that companies like Acoustic Sounds use are already at 30 IPS (on one half inch tape). Any way you slice it an extra generation at 30 in per second is going to be better than one at 15 in per second, regardless of the speed of the original master.

As for the mechanical precision, I can't imagine that the extremely expensive machines they were talking about in this thread are not good enough to run a 30 in per second! I've been involved with tape machines for probably 50 years and I'm at the expert level in servicing/restoring them. Trust me, 30 IPS is a solvable problem and if we're already talking north of $50, 000, the cost to run at 30 IPS is a drop in the bucket..

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Like I mentioned previously, the work parts that companies like Acoustic Sounds use are already at 30 IPS (on one half inch tape). Any way you slice it an extra generation at 30 in per second is going to be better than one at 15 in per second, regardless of the speed of the original master.

As for the mechanical precision, I can't imagine that the extremely expensive machines they were talking about in this thread are not good enough to run a 30 in per second! I've been involved with tape machines for probably 50 years and I'm at the expert level in servicing/restoring them. Trust me, 30 IPS is a solvable problem and if we're already talking north of $50, 000, the cost to run at 30 IPS is a drop in the bucket..

well....er......what would you suppose a Studer A-820 or Ampex ATR-102 might retail for today as a clean sheet of paper, brand new product? when you look at the level of engineering and quality of transport?

$175k.....maybe $250k. and that's only if they did a run of 500 to 1000. otherwise much more.

these brand new $10k--$50k machines of today compare to the $750---$3000 machines of 40-50 years ago. they did not do 30ips either. not saying that the 30ips engineering problem is not doable, but at what cost, and at what level of reliability, how that might raise the resultant retail price, and how many would you then sell?

not my area of expertise at all, much more yours. but actual execution of a more robust product changes the math.

 

[Ampexed]

well....er......what would you suppose a Studer A-820 or Ampex ATR-102 might retail for today as a clean sheet of paper, brand new product? when you look at the level of engineering and quality of transport?

$175k.....maybe $250k. and that's only if they did a run of 500 to 1000. otherwise much more.

these brand new $10k--$50k machines of today compare to the $750---$3000 machines of 40-50 years ago. they did not do 30ips either.

You're being far too pessimistic. I was there when the Studer and Ampex were new (see profile) - the machines being made now are closer to being up to the task as you seem to think. I don't know your engineering level, but I can see looking from the outside-in something like a speed conversion would be a big deal. It isn't to people who do it. Heck, you can use a 15ips IEC calibration tape on a 30ips AES machine (and vice versa) and all the like-frequencies will come out at the proper level. I would expect a more adventurous spirit from a forum called "What's Best"!

Oh well. I'll shut up now.

 

[bonzo75]

$175k.....maybe $250k. and that's only if they did a run of 500 to 1000. otherwise much more.

these brand new $10k--$50k machines of today compare to the $750---$3000 machines of 40-50 years ago.

Same logic, western electric etc

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I would expect a more adventurous spirit from a forum called "What's Best"!

look at my signature. i define 'adventurous spirit'. i'm no engineer, but support plenty of pro audio guys in all my media acquisitions over the years.

btw, to look at your system, which i really enjoyed btw, i had to re-activate my 21 year old Hoffmann account. had not been on there for 5 years.

 

[Foxbat]

You're being far too pessimistic. I was there when the Studer and Ampex were new (see profile) - the machines being made now are closer to being up to the task as you seem to think. I don't know your engineering level, but I can see looking from the outside-in something like a speed conversion would be a big deal. It isn't to people who do it. Heck, you can use a 15ips IEC calibration tape on a 30ips AES machine (and vice versa) and all the like-frequencies will come out at the proper level. I would expect a more adventurous spirit from a forum called "What's Best"!

Oh well. I'll shut up now.

I don't think you can take a PR99 and make it run at 30ips the way its big brothers do. It is a budget machine, with all the implications.

But that is not the main issue. Any deviation from the standard process can be costly. As I mentioned earlier, I don't see any possible financial reward from such an endeavor due to the small market size. Considering all the hidden costs I would expect the product price to double, which would kill any meaningful sales.

I don't disagree regarding the sound quality benefits.

 

[microstrip]

I don't think you can take a PR99 and make it run at 30ips the way its big brothers do. It is a budget machine, with all the implications.

But that is not the main issue. Any deviation from the standard process can be costly. As I mentioned earlier, I don't see any possible financial reward from such an endeavor due to the small market size. Considering all the hidden costs I would expect the product price to double, which would kill any meaningful sales.

I don't disagree regarding the sound quality benefits.

I was going to post in the same sense. For someone who does not need recording facilities I think there are better ways of getting tape in his system.