Sibilance with Hegel H390 powered system

[BernArt77]

I could use some help figuring out source(s) of sibilance and fatigue in my system: H390 with Jay's CDT2MKIII transport feeding Aqua La Voce S2 DAC.

What I've tried, heard:

Scenario #1) Simaudio 260DT transport -> Aqua DAC -> Hegel = no sibilance or fatigue. Noticeably less resolving than current components

Scenario #2) Jay's CDT2MKIII -> Aqua DAC -> Hegel = sibilance and fatigue

Scenario #3) Jay's -> Hegel's internal DAC = no fatigue, less pronounced sibilance

Scenario #4) Jay's -> Hegel's DAC Loop -> Aqua DAC -> Hegel = worst sibilance (whether there is fatigue is a moot point -- this level of sibilance alone is intolerable)


Note that leaving the Aqua DAC out of the system yields the most relaxed presentation with the least sibilance (but still more sibilance than I'd prefer).

What to make of this? Suggestions?

Ideally, I would prefer to hold onto the Hegel but am open to swapping out anything at this point, if it would eliminate sibilance. It's ruining my listening enjoyment. Could afford 5-6K for another integrated or 3K used for another DAC or Transport.

 

[ecwl]

I'm trying to figure out what is the new component here? H390? What was the previous component?

Because it sounds like as you feed the Aqua DAC with a source that has lower and lower levels of jitter, you're hearing the Aqua DAC to be more and more sibilant to your ears. I suspect this is inherent to Aqua DAC as in that is how the DAC should sound like as you provide it with a better and better source. The soft sound with no resolution you got from the Simaudio 260DT was just due to the high levels of jitter probably.

I have to admit I'm not very familiar with the products except for maybe the Simaudio 260DT and the Hegel H390 as my local dealers used to carry them. Would be good to understand what your previous setup was. The one without the sibilance or fatigue.

 

[BernArt77]

I'm trying to figure out what is the new component here? H390? What was the previous component?

Because it sounds like as you feed the Aqua DAC with a source that has lower and lower levels of jitter, you're hearing the Aqua DAC to be more and more sibilant to your ears. I suspect this is inherent to Aqua DAC as in that is how the DAC should sound like as you provide it with a better and better source. The soft sound with no resolution you got from the Simaudio 260DT was just due to the high levels of jitter probably.

I have to admit I'm not very familiar with the products except for maybe the Simaudio 260DT and the Hegel H390 as my local dealers used to carry them. Would be good to understand what your previous setup was. The one without the sibilance or fatigue.

The Sim -> Aqua -> Hegel was first and produced no fatigue or sibilance. Next, I replaced the Sim with the Jay's , which produced both sibilance and fatigue. The two subsequent scenarios are experiments I've run recently. Of these two, running the Jay's directly into the Hegel produces the most un-fatiguing sound and the least sibilance (but still more sibilance than I'd prefer). Hope this is clearer. Not sure whether you are suggesting sibilance is inevitable.

 

[ecwl]

The Sim -> Aqua -> Hegel was first and produced no fatigue or sibilance. Next, I replaced the Sim with the Jay's , which produced both sibilance and fatigue. The two subsequent scenarios are experiments I've run recently. Of these two, running the Jay's directly into the Hegel produces the most un-fatiguing sound and the least sibilance (but still more sibilance than I'd prefer). Hope this is clearer. Not sure whether you are suggesting sibilance is inevitable.

Yes. Sometimes with system synergy, upgrades become paradoxical. For example, you might be very happy with your current system but as you upgrade to better and better speakers in your favourite brand, you find the speakers sound worse and worse. The problem is actually that the better speakers are revealing deficits in the other components of your system.

My gut instinct is that as you improve your source with lower jitter, you're actually hearing the flaw of the Aqua DAC in the form of sibilance.
I could definitely be wrong because if for some reason, you're pumping more and more RF noise into the Aqua DAC, you would also hear more sibilance. Another way to think about it is that if the Aqua La Voce S2 is perfectly designed, they wouldn't have completely changed the design for the S3 and the higher end Aqua designs also don't try to replicate the design concepts of La Voce S2.

So basically, if you want to keep the Jay transport and the Hegel, you'll probably have to find a new DAC that sounds good to you.
Unfortunately, having never heard the Aqua La Voce S2, it is very difficult to guess what kind of sound you like to recommend a DAC for you.
My gut feeling says the Yggdrasil Schitt More is Better DAC might be to your liking? Conceptually it's hard to imagine a DAC with a lower MSRP than your 2015 La Voce S2 might sound better. But technology marches on so R2R DAC designs are more sophisticated. The other reason to recommend the Yggdrasil is that you can return it in 15 days with a 5% exchange fee so $52 to test a DAC at home is nice. Unless you can find other DACs from local dealers to take home to try. It'll also give you a sense of what modern DAC designs can do.

 

[steve59]

Idk if the 390 and 590 use the same dac but I would think the least amount of components in the chain offers the smallest chance of noise entering the system. The h360 is a clean quiet unit, but slightly softer on top next to the h590. Sorry I never got the 390 home.

 

[Ron Resnick]

am open to swapping out anything at this point, if it would eliminate sibilance.

My solution would be to swap out digital for analog.

 

[BernArt77]

Idk if the 390 and 590 use the same dac but I would think the least amount of components in the chain offers the smallest chance of noise entering the system. The h360 is a clean quiet unit, but slightly softer on top next to the h590. Sorry I never got the 390 home.

Yes; that is my current experience but I find the dac in the H390 rather lean sounding.

 

[BernArt77]

My solution would be to swap out digital for analog.

Replicating my cd collection with vinyl is impractical but thanks.

 

[PYP]

My gut feeling says the Yggdrasil Schitt More is Better DAC might be to your liking? Conceptually it's hard to imagine a DAC with a lower MSRP than your 2015 La Voce S2 might sound better. But technology marches on so R2R DAC designs are more sophisticated. The other reason to recommend the Yggdrasil is that you can return it in 15 days with a 5% exchange fee so $52 to test a DAC at home is nice. Unless you can find other DACs from local dealers to take home to try. It'll also give you a sense of what modern DAC designs can do.

@BernArt77 although I'm not familiar with your equipment, I believe it is good advice to try another DAC, ideally from a dealer but the return option mentioned above is worthwhile too.

Schitt has three versions of the Yggdrasil. Perhaps further research would give you an idea of the sound of the three. I have their inexpensive Modius, which I used for various experiments, and it is surprisingly good for the price (in the way I used it, which used an excellent streamer/upsampler to feed it via AES). There certainly are a lot of happy Yggdrasil owners out there.

 

[BernArt77]

@BernArt77 although I'm not familiar with your equipment, I believe it is good advice to try another DAC, ideally from a dealer but the return option mentioned above is worthwhile too.

Schitt has three versions of the Yggdrasil. Perhaps further research would give you an idea of the sound of the three. I have their inexpensive Modius, which I used for various experiments, and it is surprisingly good for the price (in the way I used it, which used an excellent streamer/upsampler to feed it via AES). There certainly are a lot of happy Yggdrasil owners out there.

Thanks. Based upon reviews, I suspect Schiit dacs are too digital sounding for my tastes. I'm inclined to head in a different direction -- Border Patrol -- if I'm going to experiment at a modest price point (and BP offers a return policy without the restocking fee Schiit extracts), unless you have compelling rationale why BP would definitely be wrong direction, given what I've reported re: system. I'll admit that I'm ignorant re: which DACs might be better at rejecting noise than the Aqua. My thinking is that because the BP is designed for a more analog-like presentation, it might respond differently in my system. I don't actually know.

 

[PYP]

Thanks. Based upon reviews, I suspect Schiit dacs are too digital sounding for my tastes. I'm inclined to head in a different direction -- Border Patrol -- if I'm going to experiment at a modest price point (and BP offers a return policy without the restocking fee Schiit extracts), unless you have compelling rationale why BP would definitely be wrong direction, given what I've reported re: system. I'll admit that I'm ignorant re: which DACs might be better at rejecting noise than the Aqua. My thinking is that because the BP is designed for a more analog-like presentation, it might respond differently in my system. I don't actually know.

my advice would be to ignore everyone's advice (including mine!) except your own and follow your audiophile intuition.

[of course, whether you take or ignore my advice, you are still taking my advice, but that is a philosophical exploration for another day]

 

[BernArt77]

Hah! I haven't been doing this all that long, so I'm not sure I've accumulated enough experience to reliably depend upon my intuition. In any case, I appreciate your input. I will try the Border Patrol, as I have to begin somewhere, and take it from there. Thanks again.

 

[sbnx]

Try this…go and very lightly bump the speakers forward.

 

[BernArt77]

Try this…go and very lightly bump the speakers forward.

Not sure what you mean, exactly. Is it about the "bumping" or moving them closer to listening chair? have monitors on sand-filled stands that in turn have Herbies Gliders, resting on large pavers. Are you suggesting a particular ratio of distance between speakers to distance from speakers to listening chair... or ? ? ?

 

[sbnx]

Not sure what you mean, exactly. Is it about the "bumping" or moving them closer to listening chair? have monitors on sand-filled stands that in turn have Herbies Gliders, resting on large pavers. Are you suggesting a particular ratio of distance between speakers to distance from speakers to listening chair... or ? ? ?

I would like to be clear that when you refer to sibilance it is the sharpness of the "S" sound being formed by singers. Just making sure as sometimes the "audiophile" vocabulary gets in the way. Especially on a forum instead of an in person conversation.

Sorry, I should have explained better. A lot of sibilance is caused by a slight misalignment of the tweeters. The sharp "S" sound is in the 5 kHz region so it is not a very big movement at all. I am not sayting that bumping the speaker will definitely fix the problem but it is easy and worth a shot. Start with only bumping the right speaker and give it a listen. as you have the speakers on sliders it doesn't have to be hit it very hard. You are not going to even see the speaker move but it will. Go to the back of the right speaker. If the monitors are secured to the stands then use your index finger knuckel to tap on the back of the stand near the floor. Use your knuckle like you are knocking on a door. But just one tap. If the monitors are not secured to the stands then very lightly tap the bottom of the speaker. Go back and listen and see if the sibilance improved any. If not then try the left speaker.

I know this sounds dumb. Just something you can try for free.

 

[Rexp]

I could use some help figuring out source(s) of sibilance and fatigue in my system: H390 with Jay's CDT2MKIII transport feeding Aqua La Voce S2 DAC.

What I've tried, heard:

Scenario #1) Simaudio 260DT transport -> Aqua DAC -> Hegel = no sibilance or fatigue. Noticeably less resolving than current components

Scenario #2) Jay's CDT2MKIII -> Aqua DAC -> Hegel = sibilance and fatigue

Scenario #3) Jay's -> Hegel's internal DAC = no fatigue, less pronounced sibilance

Scenario #4) Jay's -> Hegel's DAC Loop -> Aqua DAC -> Hegel = worst sibilance (whether there is fatigue is a moot point -- this level of sibilance alone is intolerable)


Note that leaving the Aqua DAC out of the system yields the most relaxed presentation with the least sibilance (but still more sibilance than I'd prefer).

What to make of this? Suggestions?

Ideally, I would prefer to hold onto the Hegel but am open to swapping out anything at this point, if it would eliminate sibilance. It's ruining my listening enjoyment. Could afford 5-6K for another integrated or 3K used for another DAC or Transport.

How is the transport connected to the DAC? Could try other cables. Failing that, one member here swears by inserting a Mutec reclocker between transport and DAC.

 

[thedudeabides]

Really cheap fix if it works. Totally agree with sbnx. A variation on his advice. I would try "toeing" your speakers in or out a 1/ 4 inch or so first. See what you hear. Also try slight "shimming" speakers up or down . Or move both the speakers. Sounds like tweeters are "beaming" at your ears in the current location .