Should Class D designs cost less than comparable other designs?

[caesar]

There is some kind of an unspoken expectation that Class D gear should cost less than other designs. What is the reason for this? Cheaper parts? Less assembly time? Perceived cheaper design? Less time to design? Less value delivered in the listening experience?

 

[docvale]

If a class D design is based on ICE-power modules, or other OEM modules that are made available to amp manufacturers, they should definitely cost less. It's not a matter of performance, but a matter on how much the manufacturer is spending in R&D and actual production.

I remember when I compared the internals of some Rotel and Rowland amps. The cost difference was huge, the internals identical.

 

[Atmasphere]

The short answer is 'yes'.

I have an early (2006) class D amplifier that is the size of a pack of cigarettes. It is complete- heatsinks, input and output connections, all you need to add is a power supply and a box. It makes 100 watts per channel and in quantities of one cost $25.00 each. It does not sound significantly different from other modules.

What I see happening in the class D world is not unlike what we saw when transistors first came in: the industry saw that it could build the new technology for about 10-20% of the construction cost of the prior art yet it could sell it for at least 90% of the retail cost of the prior art. Just follow the dollars...

 

[dallasjustice]

The new Mola Mola Kaluga monoblocks are planned to retail for $18,000. The Rowland 925 retails for more than $50,000.

 

[mep]

The new Mola Mola Kaluga monoblocks are planned to retail for $18,000. The Rowland 925 retails for more than $50,000.

So what does this mean?

 

[dallasjustice]

It's not a matter of performance, but a matter on how much the manufacturer is spending in R&D and actual production.

It's always about the buyer's perceived value of the product. Cost of production is a secondary factor. If your economic principle were really true, then we would be paying big money for cell phones that look like this.

 

[dallasjustice]

So what does this mean?

It means not all class D amps are cheap.

 

[mep]

It means not all class D amps are cheap.

That wasn't the question the thread originator asked. He said there is an expectation that Class D amps should be cheap and asked why that is so.

 

[docvale]

It's always about the buyer's perceived value of the product. Cost of production is a secondary factor. If your economic principle were really true, then we would be paying big money for cell phones that look like this.
View attachment 15948

I don't think that's a right example.
My point is if the heart of two power amps from different brands is the same, it means that at least one of the two did not actually invested in designing the product. Where is the research costs, the selected components and all that jazz that make some of the hiend costs justified?

If a company develops a class D module, that's R&D, that's selection of components, that's actual manufacturing. If a company buys an entire power amp module, I see just a chassis as original contribution.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

7 years ago i needed to purchase a set of small monoblocks for the rear channels of the SACD surround set-up i was adding to my 2-channel room. i looked at the $7k Rowland Designs model 301 monoblocks which used the 500/1000 watt ICE modules. then i found some Chinese clones (Marano) of the Model 301 at $1800 retail, i paid $1200 for them and they sounded identical....which is to say quite competent and satisfying. at $1200 they were a steal and remarkable performing with the Marten Dukes (a fine small monitor speaker) i was using for my rear channels.

yes; the Rowland did have a prettier face plate.

my son still uses those Marano amps.

 

[dallasjustice]

I don't think that's a right example.
My point is if the heart of two power amps from different brands is the same, it means that at least one of the two did not actually invested in designing the product. Where is the research costs, the selected components and all that jazz that make some of the hiend costs justified?

If a company develops a class D module, that's R&D, that's selection of components, that's actual manufacturing. If a company buys an entire power amp module, I see just a chassis as original contribution.

Okay. So, the two amps I mentioned is an interesting example. Isn't it? Why would the Rowland 925 cost more than 3x the Mola Mola when the so called heart is the same (Hypex Ncore 1200) and Mola Mola (via related entity hypex) bore almost all of the development costs?

I still think that's a question only the prospective buyer can answer. If the perceived value is there for the Rowland 925 and there are buyers for it, more power to Rowland.

 

[docvale]

...
I still think that's a question only the prospective buyer can answer. If the perceived value is there for the Rowland 925 and there are buyers for it, more power to Rowland.

Of course.
Nobody is advocating the requirement for caps on the retail price of Class D amps.

OTOH, if someone could compare the performance of 2 amps that differ just for the chassis, the perceived value could be affected.

Like in every passion/hobby, hiend is also influenced by the pride/pleasure of ownership. That's nothing bad about that!
For some people, there is a plus-value in some brands and I totally respect that. It's just not a universal feeling, that's it.

 

[mep]

I heard that when Class D amps will no longer play music correctly they can still be used as bug zappers.

 

[dallasjustice]

I heard that when Class D amps will no longer play music correctly they can still be used as bug zappers.

Before that time comes, they will be Class A amp zappers as well.

 

[mep]

Before that time comes, they will be Class A amp zappers as well.

Don't sit on a picket fence waiting for that to happen.

 

[mojave]

Part of the perception could be because a lot of the Class D amps weigh less than equal power of other classes. However, my Class D monoblocks (Digital Amp Company Cherry Mono Plus) are completely custom designed and weigh 40 lbs each due to their large toroidal transformer. Andre Marc reviewed the smaller Maraschino in the May 2014 TONEAudio.

 

[garylkoh]

The perception is that:

1) all Class D amps using the same modules sound identical
2) "just add a power supply" - because the modules don't require a regulated power supply, any power supply will do.

However, if you care to try it (the parts are 'cheap') the design of the power supply makes a lot of difference. A Class D module draws power totally different from Class A and Class AB power supplies. If the module is just one component among the components that you need to choose, then the equation changes.

How a Class D module sucks/sips at a power supply makes quite a big difference in the design of the power supply. I view the Class D module as nothing more than a component that regulates how current is sent to a loudspeaker (I guess I'm still primarily a loudspeaker designer). The amplifier design, then, becomes a little more complicated than choosing a module, building a power supply and putting it all in a nice, expensive box.

I designed a relatively unknown Class D power amp.

 

[dallasjustice]

I agree that weight is a big part of perception. I think class D amps are usually paired with SMPS. Audiophiles haven't fully embraced switching power. I think that perception will reverse in the coming years.

 

[microstrip]

And we also have a mix of class D and analog amplification - the Devialet ADH which stands for Analog Digital Hybrid.

 

[mep]

I agree that weight is a big part of perception. I think class D amps are usually paired with SMPS. Audiophiles haven't fully embraced switching power. I think that perception will reverse in the coming years.

I wouldn't sit on a picket fence waiting for that to happen either.