Seeking articulate subwoofer advice

[KPC]

I have the Vimberg Mino D speakers and the Constellation Inspiration Pre and Stereo electronics. My amp was reported lacking in bottom energy slam, luckily it’s not a major sonic issue for me. Adding a pair of powered subwoofers would: solve this slam problem, offer better bass extension, and offer a better base support for the rest of the of the music.

I’m searching for “articulate” bass extension meaning it sounds like an actual instrument rather than simply energetic bass. Because my speaker is rigidly damped, I’m drawn to likewise heavily braced subwoofers like Magico or Wilson but their larger subwoofers are priced above my budget. Not sure if Rel or JL Fantoms are good enough, the JLs I’m somewhat leery of the reports of reliability needing repairs. Not sure if lower priced alternatives can give me the performance I seek.

Also, it seems that to get lower frequencies a larger subwoofer driver vs more drivers are required, is that correct? Seems like subterranean organ music needs at least a 13 inch plus subwoofer.

My budget limit is around $15k- enough for a pair of Jl Fantom 13” plus their CR crossover unit, but would prefer to spend less

 

[slowGEEZR]

I have the Vimberg Mino D speakers and the Constellation Inspiration Pre and Stereo electronics. My amp was reported lacking in bottom energy slam, luckily it’s not a major sonic issue for me. Adding a pair of powered subwoofers would: solve this slam problem, offer better bass extension, and offer a better base support for the rest of the of the music.

I’m searching for “articulate” bass extension meaning it sounds like an actual instrument rather than simply energetic bass. Because my speaker is rigidly damped, I’m drawn to likewise heavily braced subwoofers like Magico or Wilson but their larger subwoofers are priced above my budget. Not sure if Rel or JL Fantoms are good enough, the JLs I’m somewhat leery of the reports of reliability needing repairs. Not sure if lower priced alternatives can give me the performance I seek.

Also, it seems that to get lower frequencies a larger subwoofer driver vs more drivers are required, is that correct? Seems like subterranean organ music needs at least a 13 inch plus subwoofer.

My budget limit is around $15k- enough for a pair of Jl Fantom 13” plus their CR crossover unit, but would prefer to spend less

I use Wilson speakers and a pair of SVS SB-4000 subs. I feel the subs give me everything I could want from subs.

 

[LL21]

Very interesting request. I have enjoyed subs in my system for over 25 years...and am now thinking about a custom all-out design.

In reading your description, I wonder if a big sub (as in subterraneous, sub-35hz sub is what you want)...or more a superb addition to your main bass (ie, above 40hz but that goes down to 20hz).

Take a look at this review of the WB Infrasonic Sub. I know people who have [almost literally] owned 'everything' because they could afford to buy to try...and then sell off and keep what they wanted. And whose system (and room) cost millions. And in their still 6-figure second system, he really loved the Infrasonics last time we spoke

Wilson-Benesch Torus Infrasonic Generator (Subwoofer) - The Absolute Sound

Wilson-Benesch Torus Infrasonic Generator (Subwoofer) -

www.theabsolutesound.com

Specifically in addition to power, speed, slam and blend-ability...it also specifically says its best positioned as a superb woofer for a system that would benefit from it...than something that is designed to play predominantly below 25hz.

 

[msimanyi]

My budget limit is around $15k- enough for a pair of Jl Fantom 13” plus their CR crossover unit, but would prefer to spend less

TMRAudio has a number of REL subwoofers to choose from, both open box and used. Maybe try two of the Carbon Specials?

If you can integrate the CR-1 crossover with the RELs (confirm that with REL or online), I think that gives you a superb combination of subwoofer performance and tuning flexibility that you wouldn't otherwise have with REL subwoofers alone.

 

[thomask]

After living with pair of Rel 31 for more than 3 weeks, I can enjoy the music.

If necessary, it can slam and go deep with organ music.

But most of the time, subwoofer give just solid foundation to my Scaena 3.2.

They give generous 60 days of return.

Thus I recommend you to try them in your system.

I am of the optinion that you may do without CR crossover.

You may try 40-60 hz crossover with Rel 31 in addition to main speaker.

 

[Ron Resnick]

To stay under about $15,000, I would vote for a pair of REL No. 31s, or, alternatively, a pair of REL 212/SXes.

I spent last Saturday afternoon and evening listening to my friend's new system with his new REL No. 25s. I thought they added texture and detail to his low frequencies, as well as, obviously, to additional foundation.

 

[Gregadd]

Lack of "slam" is most likely am amplification problem. An alternate to two expensive subs would be four of those twelve each cubes.
Carver Sunfire.

 

[Cincy2]

I have a pair of B&W DB1D subs. Plenty of power, two powered drivers on each. They are paired with my B&W 802D's and give me the bass support I crave. Well under $15K US for the pair. Well engineered and amazing build quality.

Cincy

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I have the Vimberg Mino D speakers and the Constellation Inspiration Pre and Stereo electronics. My amp was reported lacking in bottom energy slam, luckily it’s not a major sonic issue for me. Adding a pair of powered subwoofers would: solve this slam problem, offer better bass extension, and offer a better base support for the rest of the of the music.

I’m searching for “articulate” bass extension meaning it sounds like an actual instrument rather than simply energetic bass. Because my speaker is rigidly damped, I’m drawn to likewise heavily braced subwoofers like Magico or Wilson but their larger subwoofers are priced above my budget. Not sure if Rel or JL Fantoms are good enough, the JLs I’m somewhat leery of the reports of reliability needing repairs. Not sure if lower priced alternatives can give me the performance I seek.

Also, it seems that to get lower frequencies a larger subwoofer driver vs more drivers are required, is that correct? Seems like subterranean organ music needs at least a 13 inch plus subwoofer.

My budget limit is around $15k- enough for a pair of Jl Fantom 13” plus their CR crossover unit, but would prefer to spend less

the Funk Audio 18.0 subs are world class. and can be dialed in remotely.

prices on the website are in Canadian dollars. less than $5k each USD.

i have 3 of them in my Home Theater room and they are serious products. not one note bass or just a brute. they are very nuanced. Nathan Funk builds his own drivers. worth investigating. there are even more capable models but for music the 18.0 is 'sufficient'. the fit and finish is like fine furniture. there is a que to wait for them to be built.

the new Gobel subs are also one's to look at, but they are $29k each.

 

[Keith_W]

I spent $15k on a pair of custom made subwoofers. I used Rythmik Audio DS1204. These are servo controlled drivers, with the servo sensor located in the voice coil (meaning it is less susceptible to cone breakup). Each subwoofer has two of these 12" drivers, and driven by a Rythmik plate amp putting out 800W in total.

The advantage of going custom made is that you can get a sub that fits your requirements exactly. In my case, I wanted it to match my existing furniture so I designed it to fit:



Designing a sub is easier than you think, provided you choose a sealed design. Rythmik publishes Thiele-Small parameters on their website. The most important parameter for you to note is the Vas (the enclosed volume). A smaller volume gives you a higher Q, or "tighter" bass, at the expense of loudness. Since I have two subwoofers with two drivers per sub, loudness was not a concern. I have ample loudness.

Once you design your subwoofer, you submit your drawings to a company that does CNC cutting. If you are unable to make CAD drawings, most of them will do it for you for a fee. Once you have all the pieces CNC cut, you can choose to assemble it yourself, or send it to a professional cabinet maker. My subs were professionally assembled. I would never be able to get that kind of finish if I DIY'ed it. When I took delivery of the cabinet, simply drop the drivers in, hook it up to the plate amp, and then the fun begins.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Geithain basis 14k( 15.75"bass) around 4.8k€ per piece cardioid radiation characteristic sub should not stand on the floor example

musikelectronic geithain gmbh - BASIS 14K

 

[KPC]

Thanks all for sharing your knowledge and experience. Very much appreciated.

 

[defride]

Guess there's all sorts of ways to approach this subject. I can offer up my recent experience that may be useful

I'd bought a small sealed 10" sub by BK in the UK to experiment with Kharma speakers (in a small room). Was surprised at the impact, positive overall but a nagging sense that the bass in particular was loose. It lacked the fast articulate nature of some systems I've heard and live.

Roll on a year or so and I replaced the Kharma with Lumen White speakers. I'd speculate that they come from a similar design ethos to Vimberg/Tidal. Much greater resolution, faster and more articulate than the Kharma's. Still, I felt the very modest sub added something. Greater imaging substance and air in the soundstage. I didn't set up the system to add more bass, the Lumen are only down around -3db in the low 20s. In fact if anything following manufacturer guidelines for setup there was probably a suckout in the low bass that robbed some energy here. A couple of visitors noted that. Not something that bothered me particularly as the Kharma system wasn't subterranean by any means so not something I was used too.

From the start the sub would not integrate with my systems when placed on the floor, too much energy that set off room nodes. Getting it off the floor on to a stand made all the difference, I could get it to a place where the in room sound while compromised was preferrable with the sub rather than without.

The revelation came when I read a piece postulating the importance of time aligning a sub with the mains. Careful placement of the single sub between the speakers had a profound effect. More bass, more articulate bass and much greater imaging presence across the freq range, images took on greater energy. Most surprising, very small changes moving the sub back and forth had a significant effect. One track I used had some high freq percussion buried in the first bars. Moving the sub less than 1cm front to back could make that percussion sound flat & 2D or like an instrument being played with shape and texture. When that percussion sounded like the latter the rest of the sound rather fell in to place. Remarkable for a very modest sub on a pair of substantial full range speakers. Still for all that was good in some cases I got the sense that the sub wasn't keeping up with the mains so started to look for another.

Given the speed of Accuton drivers and small size of my room 14.5/11/8ft I figured 10" sealed again and settled on a JL Fathom. It certainly wasn't a case of place the new sub where the old one was and adjust the settings to same, that didn't work. A few days of making fine adjustments did finally pay dividend and the slight blurring of some basslines is gone from the previous setup. Very happy now with the sub integration. It provides power, fill and air while retaining the articulation that I prefer. Hope that makes sense... sorry don't have the audio vocabulary of some here!

@KPC hope you find a solution that works for you

 

[Solypsa]

.I'm searching for “articulate” bass extension meaning it sounds like an actual instrument rather than simply energetic bass.

Do you suspect your room is causing issues in bass area? This would be the crossroads between using subs as an extension of the speakers versus using subs as a means to improving room issues...

.Aso, it seems that to get lower frequencies a larger subwoofer driver vs more drivers are required, is that correct? Seems like subterranean organ music needs at least a 13 inch plus subwoofer.

Cabinet topology &/or driver size ( excursion is a part of this too ).

My budget limit is around $15k- enough for a pair of Jl Fantom 13” plus their CR crossover unit, but would prefer to spend less

On the one hand you could put budget towards just one sub, two or even four depends on the approach utilized. If you are low passing the sub(s) at say 40hz the stereo aspect shouldn't be the primary concern

 

[Johan K]

KPC,

Don’t forget the Martin Logan BF-210, and the BF-212 subwoofers… At $3500 / $4500, they are very good for both music and home theatre.

All the best

/ Jk

 

[Solypsa]

@KPC what solution did you pick?

 

[KPC]

Still debating, not urgent - bigger fish to fry - working on major remodeling including flooring, but am hesitant to move out 4months after packing 30yrs of stuff. We’re looking at piecemeal options. Also, I plan to move to a larger home within 3-5yrs, so after speaker set-up and room optimization then I’ll address if additional bass/subwoofers are still desirable.

I’m not a bass head so don’t crave slam as Fremer likes, but am interested in filling/supporting the lower sonics. Leaning towards using the JL Audio CR-1 for reported performance and adjustability, not sure which subwoofers yet. I’m also considering a ENIGMAcoustics Sopranino to support the treble end.

Also working on my other audio chain items. Budgeting for a network switch, cable, Ethernet filter likely from Network Acoustics. I’ll also likely upgrade my Coincedent Frankensteins to v4.

 

[Bruce B]

I purchased subs not to augment the mains, but for room correction. I've had Wilsons and others, but what I settled on were 2 JLAudio f112v2 subs with CR-1 x-over. This is the most natural combo I've heard yet.

 

[gleeds]

Geithain basis 14k( 15.75"bass) around 4.8k€ per piece cardioid radiation characteristic sub should not stand on the floor example

musikelectronic geithain gmbh - BASIS 14K

View attachment 109248

I absolutely love this speaker configuration. Well done!

 

[KPC]

I’ve read several complaints about JL Audio’s reliability - needing to send it in for a fix. I am a big fan of low maintenance/reliability and JL subwoofers make me nervous to purchase, otherwise JL would be my top choice.