Reviewing the Furutec Demag

[Mike Lavigne]

There is something I do to my Accustic Arts transport. It is a top loader for cds. I have a Shakti Stone and I place it directly above the spindle. The Shakti is a Electromagnetic stablizer and I believe it helps with the magnetic field generated by the spinning of the disc. Anyway I am not sure why it works but you should try it. It works wonders for my didgital playback.



Booboobaer

i owned a pair of Shakti Stones for 10 years, and finally sold them along with a few of my other un-used tweaks last fall in a cash seeking purge.

i have no illusions; talking about Shakti Stones on WBF is asking for grief. over the years i used the Shakti Stones in a number of situations where i found they lowered the noise floor and improved vividness...mostly on amplifier transformers (Tenor OTL monoblocks) and digital transports (EMM Labs). in other situations they softened the sound, and so i did not use them. it was about finding the right balance. they are just another tool. they could also help with dampning reasonance of poorly damped casework with some gear.

Shakti Stones fall under the heading of "They are not expensive, do some good things in specific situations, and are not worth defending". like cable elevators, NOT WORTH DEFENDING!

so if you talk about this type of stuff here, do not take reactions personally.

 

[booboobaer]

Booboo-Sorry if my attempt at humor upset you. I thought you were kidding when you wrote your post. I should have known better. Sorry bro.

No problem. But I am serious when I say it helps. My system consists of a BAT vk51SE preamp, Krell 650 mono blocks, Accustic Arts Transport, AA DAC and JM Labs Utopia speakers, Synergistic Research power cell 10 se ac coditioner,ALL Purist Audio Design cabling, dedicated outlets, dedicated ground rod, shielded ac wiring in the wall, dense stone for vibration reduction,Tripoint Troy central grounding device, 18 primitive deffusors ( used in recording studios) bass traps, etc,etc. I say all this because the system is extremely resolving and the Shakti does improve the already killer sound. When I share these things I am only trying to help. If you want to see the room I will share some pics. Happy listening!

 

[booboobaer]

Cable elevators ARE a joke! I was just sharing something that pertains to magnetizing of the disc. If the iron oxides in the ink in the cds used for printing and art do cause magnetizing when spun, then it stands as soon as the disc is read (tracks and time etc.) then all effect of demagneztizers is moot as soon as the disc is spun. So I tried a method of using something that was dynamic as the disc spun. I don't take offense if one reasons.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Cable elevators ARE a joke! I was just sharing something that pertains to magnetizing of the disc. If the iron oxides in the ink in the cds used for printing and art do cause magnetizing when spun, then it stands as soon as the disc is read (tracks and time etc.) then all effect of demagneztizers is moot as soon as the disc is spun. So I tried a method of using something that was dynamic as the disc spun. I don't take offense if one reasons.

i'm not defending Cable Elevators, but i use them.

i use all sorts of things i don't defend on this forum that have various levels of effect. because on this forum listening impressions are not accepted as any sort of evidance. to be very clear; listening impressions are 'almost' the only thing I accept as evidance.

yes; Cable Elevators would likely be at the bottom of my list of things that can help.....or maybe Cable Elevators might even be on the list of things that cannot hurt and might help. again, i'm not defending them, and not equating Cable Elevators to the Shakti Stones except that this forum would view Shakti Stones as pure voodoo....so they are not worth defending HERE.

i did not intend to trivilize Shakti Stones and sorry if you took it that way.

have fun with your efforts in any case.

 

[booboobaer]

I did not take offense, thanks for caring. I did not mean to be rude I just can't hear any improvement when I try elevators. Maybe it is because the speaker cables and interconnects that I use have ferous powder and silicone damping material as shielding in them. When I had all silver cables that only had teflon coating on them I thought I could hear some improvement in the performance but that was a long time ago. Just one light hearted observation, if I can't trust my impressions of listening and I can't trust the sound it almost seems we have gone full circle back to things such as specs tell all. I once had person at an Audio Karma show tell me that his Yamaha power amp had the same specs as the Krell FPB 650 mono blocks. But my ears told me different. Any way I know what you are saying. I am going to the corner now, I always seem to mispeak. Take care!

 

[mep]

Let me say this about that. One thing that I have learned from WBF is that whatever belief system you have will be challenged. And honestly, I think that is a good thing. I didn’t use to feel that way, but now I do. People on this forum will not only turn over every rock, they will turn over a pebble they find under the rock.

We have some incredibly smart people on this forum and we have an incredible amount of cumulative experience with high-end audio gear. If you add up the total amount of experience/exposure to high-end audio gear and music listening on this forum, I would think we have over a thousand years experience combined. That’s lots of knowledge folks.

If you come on this forum and claim that digital sucks and analog rules, you will be challenged. If you say that digital rules and analog sucks, you will be challenged. If you say that tubes rule and SS sucks pond water, you will be challenged. If you say that SS is the only answer, you will be challenged. You get the point.

We all have to keep our ears open and be willing to learn and challenge our own belief systems. I’m in the midst of that now. I used to be one of those people that felt that only analog and tubes are the path to nirvana. I still think that R2R is my premium source material. At the same time, I’m now enjoying digital more than I ever did. I also enjoy gear that sounds great and has very high signal to noise ratios. It does increase the dynamic range and lets more music through. We all have to be willing to accept that there is some gear that can be had at bargain basement prices used that can and will outperform some very snooty priced gear. Expensive and exclusive doesn’t always mean better. Outside of digital which ages in dog years and where the best minds in audio are focused and the most advances happen on a routine basis, I don’t think there are that many new tricks under the sun for amps , preamps, and turntables. I think we would mainly agree that speaker technology is another area where real improvements are being made in both the quality of the drivers and cabinets.

Live and learn.

 

[fas42]

This is all following down the road of second order effects, attempting to compensate for subtle problems that the conventional engineering hasn't addressed. Knowledgeable design of the components would eliminate the impact of all the weird and wonderful tweaks, which of course would then take out of the hobby a lot of fun for audio enthusiasts! On the other hand, people in general would then enjoy much better sound ...

Frank

 

[Bruce B]

One thing that people have to realize here is that tweaks are one of the LAST things you do to your system. Everything in your system has to be at 100%, this includes your room, to hear any effect of tweaks, cables and other subtleties. You're not going to hear the differences in cable elevators on a $2k system stuck in the corner of your cluttered living room. People have to be realistic. The best way to determine if a tweak will make a difference are in acoustically treated rooms with attention to detail in your whole chain... all the way back to your electrical panel.

 

[booboobaer]

room

http://http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1269910227

 

[fas42]

You're not going to hear the differences in cable elevators on a $2k system stuck in the corner of your cluttered living room. People have to be realistic.

Disagree! A throwaway system in a cluttered room can react strongly to the equivalent to elevators if other significant factors have been taken care of ...

Frank

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Let me say this about that. One thing that I have learned from WBF is that whatever belief system you have will be challenged. And honestly, I think that is a good thing. I didn’t use to feel that way, but now I do. People on this forum will not only turn over every rock, they will turn over a pebble they find under the rock.

no doubt there are positive aspects to the objectivity focus of this forum.

OTOH i will never really think to bring my personal listening opinions about new gear here (or at least i'll seldom do that). why? because the environment does not respect listening.

which is no problem. but it does mean that what we have is Ceasar openning thread after thread of interesting topics, many of which i've enjoyed posting in, but not much learning about gear.

i'll post my listening opinions on Audiogon or audioasylum instead. the culture of this forum is not going to change.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Disagree! A throwaway system in a cluttered room can react strongly to the equivalent to elevators if other significant factors have been taken care of ...

Frank

i think Bruce was saying that you cannot dismiss a tweak without a proper high resolution environment to allow it to show it's very best. this does not mean tweaks don't work at all levels to some degree. so you might hear a tweak on a boombox, but you cannot dismiss it without hearing it in the most revealing environment.

fundamentally; this point goes to the heart of the dispute between objectivists and subjectivists. subjectivists hear something in their system, objectivists say prove it, since it does not make sense and i've never heard that. subjectivists say to the objectivist; your system or gear or whatever might not be capable, please tell me what gear you have. objectivists say it does not matter; prove it. subjectivists say, of course, it matters. not all systems will reveal this issue equally. and so on.....

so agreeing that a tweak works has no requirement; but saying it does not work requires a very revealing system, or a belief you know (nearly) everything.

to prove the negative one needs the best possible tool.

obviously, my description is an oversimplification and i make no claims of an objective view.

 

[amirm]

no doubt there are positive aspects to the objectivity focus of this forum.

We don't have an objectivity focus. Or subjectivity for that matter. Posters may have such views but there is nothing in our mission statement that states one way or the other.

OTOH i will never really think to bring my personal listening opinions about new gear here (or at least i'll seldom do that). why? because the environment does not respect listening.

I am sad to hear that Mike. I share subjective opinion from time to time. As long as one puts forth that he is not on a battle to convince anyone of anything, usually that kind of observation is accepted at face value.

i'll post my listening opinions on Audiogon or audioasylum instead. the culture of this forum is not going to change.

Again, I hope you share them here as well.

 

[Ron Party]

Let me say this about that. One thing that I have learned from WBF is that whatever belief system you have will be challenged. And honestly, I think that is a good thing. I didn’t use to feel that way, but now I do. People on this forum will not only turn over every rock, they will turn over a pebble they find under the rock.

We have some incredibly smart people on this forum and we have an incredible amount of cumulative experience with high-end audio gear. If you add up the total amount of experience/exposure to high-end audio gear and music listening on this forum, I would think we have over a thousand years experience combined. That’s lots of knowledge folks.

If you come on this forum and claim that digital sucks and analog rules, you will be challenged. If you say that digital rules and analog sucks, you will be challenged. If you say that tubes rule and SS sucks pond water, you will be challenged. If you say that SS is the only answer, you will be challenged. You get the point.

We all have to keep our ears open and be willing to learn and challenge our own belief systems. I’m in the midst of that now. I used to be one of those people that felt that only analog and tubes are the path to nirvana. I still think that R2R is my premium source material. At the same time, I’m now enjoying digital more than I ever did. I also enjoy gear that sounds great and has very high signal to noise ratios. It does increase the dynamic range and lets more music through. We all have to be willing to accept that there is some gear that can be had at bargain basement prices used that can and will outperform some very snooty priced gear. Expensive and exclusive doesn’t always mean better. Outside of digital which ages in dog years and where the best minds in audio are focused and the most advances happen on a routine basis, I don’t think there are that many new tricks under the sun for amps , preamps, and turntables. I think we would mainly agree that speaker technology is another area where real improvements are being made in both the quality of the drivers and cabinets.

Live and learn.

Mark, this is one of the best posts I've read in the 11 1/2 months this forum has been in existence. You stated that which I have posted repeatedly over at AVS and here, as well as numerous PMs, to-wit: the main reason why I personally enjoy these fora is to learn from the collective knowledge and experiences of others.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I am sad to hear that Mike. I share subjective opinion from time to time. As long as one puts forth that he is not on a battle to convince anyone of anything, usually that kind of observation is accepted at face value.

i've written a couple of responses to your comment. edited them and finally deleted them. i really don't want to (1) be a PITA (2) waste my time on fighting a battle which has no chance of success.

do you see how you marginalize listening perceptions? how would anyone look forward to sharing listening perceptions where the 'big cheese' says it's ok as long as 'he is not on a battle to convince anyone of anything'. why else do you post opinions about things? because you are passionate about the significance of your perceptions and they are truth to you.

i hope you see what your words say and why i have no interest in posting about my listening experiences here. listening experiences are not respected here and are not viewed as a basis for meaningful opinions here.

which i accept and live with; but also i express my feelings from time to time about how i feel about it.

 

[amirm]

i've written a couple of responses to your comment. edited them and finally deleted them. i really don't want to (1) be a PITA (2) waste my time on fighting a battle which has no chance of success.

You are a gentle soul Mike. I have no worries about anything you might say.

do you see how you marginalize listening perceptions? how would anyone look forward to sharing listening perceptions where the 'big cheese' says it's ok as long as 'he is not on a battle to convince anyone of anything'. why else do you post opinions about things? because you are passionate about the significance of your perceptions and they are truth to you.

I hear you Mike. I thought though you said you were afraid of sharing your experience. To me, sharing an experience and trying to convince people are two different things. Maybe it is not in your view in which case, then you are right.

I personally have no trouble swinging from the extremes of audio point of view depending on context and information I want to share. When I don't want anyone challenging me, I just say so. That is what I meant by "not convincing anyone." I would say:

"I heard this DAC today. It sounded fantastic on the music I played on it. It was better to my ears than the other brand. No, I didn't do any blind testing so don't go after me "

Alternatively, you can create a thread and in its title, make it clear that is a purely subjective one and you don't want to argue the point or go to battle. We will then make sure your wishes stay that way.

Yes, it takes a bit of effort to couch things this way. And I can appreciate it if you can go elsewhere and not put up with it.

i hope you see what your words say and why i have no interest in posting about my listening experiences here. listening experiences are not respected here and are not viewed as a basis for meaningful opinions here.

which i accept and live with; but also i express my feelings from time to time about how i feel about it.

In this instance, I don't agree Mike. My invitation was genuine for you to share your experiences without fear of being harassed and attacked. I appreciate your guard being up due to past tussles here but I hope you see my post in the genuine light it was meant to be .

 

[Gregadd]

..i use all sorts of things i don't defend on this forum that have various levels of effect. because on this forum listening impressions are not accepted as any sort of evidance. to be very clear; listening impressions are 'almost' the only thing I accept as evidance...

Mike -just because they shout the loudest does not mean they dominate. IMO listening is paramoiunt.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I hear you Mike. I thought though you said you were afraid of sharing your experience. To me, sharing an experience and trying to convince people are two different things. Maybe it is not in your view in which case, then you are right.

I personally have no trouble swinging from the extremes of audio point of view depending on context and information I want to share. When I don't want anyone challenging me, I just say so. That is what I meant by "not convincing anyone." I would say:

"I heard this DAC today. It sounded fantastic on the music I played on it. It was better to my ears than the other brand. No, I didn't do any blind testing so don't go after me "

Alternatively, you can create a thread and in its title, make it clear that is a purely subjective one and you don't want to argue the point or go to battle. We will then make sure your wishes stay that way.

Yes, it takes a bit of effort to couch things this way. And I can appreciate it if you can go elsewhere and not put up with it.


In this instance, I don't agree Mike. My invitation was genuine for you to share your experiences without fear of being harassed and attacked. I appreciate your guard being up due to past tussles here but I hope you see my post in the genuine light it was meant to be .

Amir,

i believe you are well-meaning.....and are trying to allow for open discussions. thank you for that intent. i will re-calibrate my view of posting on WBF with less caution.

but reading your above comments, i'm not convinced you really get how i feel. when you say;

"I heard this DAC today. It sounded fantastic on the music I played on it. It was better to my ears than the other brand. No, I didn't do any blind testing so don't go after me "

you are really making it clear that you (and by inference WBF) view listening perspectives as 'less valid' 'marginally valid' 'anecdotal at best'.....or words to that effect as evidance of truth about audio. as if blind testing was some sort of standard. i reject blind testing as any sort of truth about anything related to high end audio reproduction. and most/many/almost all of my audio friends agree with me.

if i must 'apologize for' or 'preface' listening perspectives then not much progress has really occured.

so there is still a considerable gap between your view of what repect for listening perspectives is and mine. and i still consider your view as marginallizing listening. understand that i don't expect that all people agree with my viewpoint on what constutues proof in music reproduction. only that there is respect for my views. and that is maybe a fine line. on some forums listening gets clear respect, and the focus is on the finer points of what someone might have heard. here it is on whether listening perceptions are valid. which is a balance that is not comfortable for me.

but i absolutely appreciate your kindness and intent. i feel the love, if not the respect for listening.

 

[garylkoh]

Mike,

Having met Amir "in real skin" I've got to say that he is a lot more open than I thought when I only knew him from the postings on this forum. He sits on the continuum between "measure" and "listen". I know that there are forums who will buy gear purely from specs and measurements, but I don't think he is. The forum is composed of both sides, and you have many on your side.

Over lunch, I told him that he *had* to take you up on your invitation to listen. Your barn is a revelatory experience to those who have never experienced it.

 

[booboobaer]

Hey Mike I just want to say that if you can't trust your ears, then what fun is listening to music anyway? My goal is to get the most emotion and energy out of the music. Some times I find something that helps me get closer and I get over enthusiastic and want to share the finding. I am often surprised when I am met with arguments rather than interest. Some people are just wired to question first and investigate later or not at all. I just want to say that if you have any tips I would be gratefull if you could share them.

Booboobaer